
Chapter 05: MD Anderson and The Department of Pediatric Oncology in the Late Seventies
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Description
In the last twenty minutes of this session, Dr. Jaffe talks about his decision to leave the Farber Institute and his recruitment to MD Anderson in 1978 to replace Wataru Walter Sutow, who was retiring as Chief of the Section of Solid Tumors. He was also to step in as a new Chief of the Long Term Surveillance Clinic for Pediatric Patients Cured of Cancer and to develop the service along the lines of a similar program created at the Farber Institute. (He describes how he maintained an enduring relationship with the latter service’s Chief at the time, Dr. Hugh Ried.) In this section Dr. Jaffe tells some funny anecdotes about the people he met at MD Anderson; he comments on the leadership styles of Dr. Charles LeMaistre and Dr. John Mendelsohn.
Identifier
JaffeN_01_20120420_C05
Publication Date
4-20-2012
City
Houston, Texas
Interview Session
Topics Covered
The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center - MD Anderson Past; Professional Path; Personal Background; MD Anderson History; Portraits; The Leader; On Leadership; MD Anderson Culture
Transcript
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
How did it happen, your move to Harvard?
Norman Jaffe, MD :
From Harvard to [MD Anderson?]
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Yes talking about—because I was looking—because you went from the institute to—oh, I see. I’m sorry. We hadn’t talked about the fact that the Children’s Cancer Research Foundation is actually part of—
Norman Jaffe, MD :
It’s part of Harvard and part of the Children’s Hospital and Medical Center. It was a combined institution.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
A combined institution. My mistake. My apologies. And so would you like to talk now about how you made the move to MD Anderson?
Norman Jaffe, MD :
Well, there were several factors involved. Firstly, I had reached what I think was the limits of my utility at Harvard. I couldn’t go any further. Secondly, Harvard is a great place, but it is also a place full of politics, and I was getting a little tired of the politics. I mean, you make the statement in jest, but I say that at times I wondered when they said “Good morning” to you, I should go outside and see if it’s not “good evening.” But that was the situation, and there were some problems in that regard. I was getting a little tired of the problems, and life is too short to drink bad wine. You drink good wine. And it’s too short to fight problems of that nature. And more importantly, I was Farber’s bright little boy, and when Farber died, he had many enemies, and the enemies said, “It is time.” I was caught in the crossfire. I said, “Listen, I don’t need this.” I was not responsible for certain factors, but they certainly [felt] justified in saying, “We are now going to take things over.” But more importantly, my daughter, who had a congenital heart, couldn’t take the cold, the snow, and things of that nature. And one of the more important factors as well was that Wataru Sutow, who was employed in this institution—and we can talk about this institution in a short while about how it developed—was retiring. I got a personal telephone call from Wataru Sutow saying, “Norman, I have seen your work. I know you. I know what you’ve done, and I am retiring. You would do me a great favor if you came and took my position at this hospital.” Now, that was a personal call from Wataru Sutow. He was not a very great personal friend of mine, but I used to meet him at meetings and so on and discuss things with him. He, incidentally, taught me a lot, although he doesn’t admit it. Of course, now he’s dead. Although he didn’t admit it and although he didn’t recognize it in his mind, I believe that he did. I met him through his writings before I met him personally. I used to read his publications with avarice, and I thought he had a good mind, and as a consequence, when I say I was well taught, I was well taught because I was self-taught through publications by Wataru Sutow, by Donald Pinkel and things of that nature. That’s how I met him, and I think he must have realized [that] I had a great deal of respect for him, and that’s why he phoned me and said, “I’m retiring. I would like you to come down and consider a position,” and that’s when I came down here. My daughter with a congenital heart, Wataru Sutow, factors at Harvard and so on, I said it was time to make a move. I’d been at the Farber Center for twelve years, seven of those under Sidney Farber, five under the new chief, Tom Frei, with whom I had a great relationship. I was really sorry to leave Harvard, but other factors were of more pressing problems to me, and I said it was time. That’s why I left and came to this institution. When we talk about this institution, it was originally established—and we can talk about it now for that matter—it was originally established by Grant Taylor. I don’t know if you know that. He was the chief over here, and he started Pediatric Oncology at this time. I didn’t know him very well, but there is a story attached to him as well. He was always dressed in a suit. He retired after a period of time, but he always came to see what was happening over here, and he felt a great deal about the integrity of the environment. At one stage, we used to take our Coca-Cola cans and put them into the garbage and things of that nature. But he didn’t like it, so when I came here, he had adopted a practice of going to the various garbage cans and pulling out Coca-Cola cans and putting them into a plastic bag and carrying the plastic bag. My bride, who came to fetch me one evening, saw him walking out—he always wore a suit—with a bag on his shoulder and my bride said, “You have come to a very, very impressive institution. Even the janitor wears a suit!” That’s a true story. But she used to see him walking around with his suit, and every evening he would collect the cans.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
What was he doing with the cans?
Norman Jaffe, MD :
I think he was disposing of them appropriately, and if you see separate garbage pails now for cans, that’s because of Grant Taylor.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
That’s so funny. People make their marks on institutions in all kinds of ways.
Norman Jaffe, MD :
I don’t know if anyone knows that, but that’s what he used to do.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
That’s a great story.
Norman Jaffe, MD :
Grant Taylor established Pediatric Oncology at MD Anderson. He invited two people to assist him over the course of time. One was Wataru Sutow, [to] whom I referred, and the other was Margaret Pat Sullivan. I think one or both worked in the Marshall Islands investigating the effect of the atomic radiation in the Marshall Islands at that time. So both of them came over here and started Pediatric Oncology, and they remained here until their retirement or until their death.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
When was that department established?
Norman Jaffe, MD :
Now, that I don’t know. I came here when it was already established. The heads of the department were the following: First it was Grant Taylor. When Taylor retired, Dan Wilbur took over for a limited period of time. Dan Wilbur is currently in San Francisco. I think he’s also retired now, but he was in charge of Pediatric Oncology in one of the hospitals in San Francisco. After Dan Wilbur retired—or didn’t retire but moved to San Francisco—Jan van Eys took over. Jan van Eys is originally from Holland. He’s still alive, incidentally, in Tennessee, and since I had been raised in an Afrikaans environment and spoke Afrikaans fluently, which is allied to Dutch, he and I often used to speak to one another, he in Dutch and I in Afrikaans (speaking Afrikaans). And Wataru Sutow, who invited me to come and take his position, had Jan van Eys as the chief, and van Eys recruited me. At that stage, they wanted me very desperately, and I interviewed several people over here. I interviewed, for example, [Dr. Robert] Hickey, over here. I don’t remember what his first name is. You’ve got the Hickey Auditorium named after him, and Hickey even said, “We will give you the same salary as we are giving Jan van Eys because we want you.” There’s also a story attached to that, incidentally. I was invited to come down and inspect the facilities and so on and so forth, and I came down with my bride and my children. I had three children at that stage. We had four, because of my daughter with the congenital heart [died]. We stayed at the Anderson Mayfair Hotel. It’s no longer in existence. There is the new hotel now, but it used to be the Anderson Mayfair, I think they called it. The president of MD Anderson was Lee Clark, and I was also requested –invited-- to be interviewed by [R.] Lee Clark. Lee Clark stayed at MD Anderson on a permanent basis. I think he had an apartment in the top floor, and I was already in the hospital, but my wife was in the elevator when Lee Clark was also in the elevator, and he had a file in his hand, and the file was marked Norman Jaffe, MD, and he was looking at it. I don’t know if he had enough time to look at it elsewhere, and he said, “Impressive. Very good.” And so my wife related that story to me, and so I had an additional card to play when I interviewed Lee Clark. You mustn’t look at files in the elevator!
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Especially not in front of an undercover agent.
Norman Jaffe, MD :
That’s right. He didn’t know who she was and so on. That’s where they put people up when they came to interview for a position and things of that nature.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
How did your interview with R. Lee Clark go?
Norman Jaffe, MD :
It went off very well.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
What were your impressions of him?
Norman Jaffe, MD :
He was an unusual man, a go-getter. I don’t know how much he knew about oncology, but he certainly was an individual who knew what he wanted, and he would do everything possible to get it. I rather liked him. I didn’t have any problems with him, and as I say, having the additional card that I knew that he was impressed and so on, that’s all I needed. We discussed a lot of things. I can’t remember exactly, but I was not unhappy with the interview. Subsequently, in the final analysis, van Eys approached me and he said, “Listen, we are prepared to offer you a professorship here, full privileges”—which I’ll enumerate to you in a moment—“a tenured position. You’ll be a tenured position.” Tenure at that stage was every seven years. I don’t know what is the situation now, but I was given a full professorship, tenure, and he said, “I want you here in two positions: one, chief of the solid tumor service, and two, I want you to develop the long-term surveillance clinic, patients who are now survivors of cancer,” because I had developed that particular clinic at the Farber Center, and it was called the Dana-Farber Cancer Center at that stage. I published about it and things of that nature, so I was asked to assume two positions: chief of the solid tumor service and head of the long-term surveillance clinic, which, incidentally, was being run by a man called Dr. Hugh Ried. He’s still alive and well, and a reasonably good friend of mine, and one must not take positions away from an individual. One must respect their dignity, so I approached Hugh, and I said, “Listen, Hugh, you are running this clinic. I want to help you. I’m not your chief, I’m your colleague, and we’ll do it together.” You can buy a man’s soul with kindness. All you’ve got to do is approach them in the right way, and that’s how my attitude has been to many of the positions I’ve held, and I’ve got more out of that than anything else. You can get people— More flies are attracted with honey than on a lemon, and just be kind and considerate to people, and you will get really a good friend out of that individual, and you’ll get what you want out of that individual. Hugh Ried and I got together, and we developed this clinic extremely well, to the extent that I wrote some papers and put his name on as the first author, as you may or may not hear, which he appreciated, and as I say, we still remain good friends. I was chief of the solid tumor service and chief of the long-term surveillance clinic. That position I held under Dr. van Eys. When Dr. van Eys retired, Dr. Margaret Sullivan took the position over for about six to nine months, and then they sought another chief, and Ka Wah Chan took that position for a period of time, and eventually Archie Bleyer took the position and he took this position for about—I would say—eight years, ten years. And when he left, they sought another individual for the position, and I nominated Dr. Eugenie Kleinerman, who is head of the position, who is chairlady or chairman or whatever you call it, and head of the department now. In fact, she came to me when I had been at Anderson after about five years. Van Eys introduced her to me. She originally had a position with Isaiah Fidler or Josh Fidler, as he was called, head of the—
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Metastasis laboratory.
Norman Jaffe, MD :
And she said she was interested in osteosarcoma, and she presented some novel ideas to me, and I encouraged her to develop them, so much so that she’s made fantastic discoveries in osteosarcoma. And when the time came for a new chief to assume the position, I think they wanted—and I supported this—a younger person, one who would at least be able to give them a fair amount of time and effort and so on, so I nominated her, and happily, she got the position. I got a call even from Dr. [John] Mendelsohn’s office where he asked me what my impressions were of Eugenie Kleinerman, and I gave her a very positive outlook on things. And as I’ve told her and I’ve told others, I really have the pleasure of saying that I am supervised by someone whom I trained. I often use that cliché, and I think she likes it, and I certainly like it. Whatever the circumstances, she is currently the chief of Pediatrics, and I think she’s doing a reasonably good job. That’s where we stand with Eugenie.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
You came to MD Anderson in—
Norman Jaffe, MD :
In ’66 [to the United States]. In ’78. That’s right.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And what were your impressions of the institution as a whole when you arrived? How did you find it? How did it function?
Norman Jaffe, MD :
I was very impressed with it. I liked it very much, and in general, I believe that they looked after their employees. Listen, there is no utopia. Let’s get it straight. There are some problems at Anderson, but there are problems everywhere, and you just have to weigh which are the more major problems, which are the minor problems, which are those that you can live with, which are those which are a constant source of irritation to you, so much so that you cannot live with them. I found that there were problems, but to me, they were minor, and I was prepared to live with them, and in fact, even try and overcome them and things of that nature, and I thoroughly enjoyed my stay at MD Anderson.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
What were some of the particular strengths of the institution when you came in 1978, and how did it compare with the situation under Sidney Farber?
Norman Jaffe, MD :
It was far superior to the Farber Center. We had good people over here. We had investigative studies [at Anderson] that were not being conducted at Farber. It was an institution that was concentrated on investigation, on new therapeutic approaches. It was indeed at the cutting edge of medicine. I think the Farber Center has changed, but when I was at the Farber Center, there was no comparison [to Anderson]. This was the institution.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
To what do you attribute that?
Norman Jaffe, MD :
I think the people who were here—[Emil] J Freireich, Tom Frei, Evan Hirsch, Wataru Sutow. We had giants here. It was nothing at the Farber Center, so to speak. I know because I was there for twelve years, and I don’t say that I did much for them, but I think I put the Farber Center on a reasonable course. It improved tremendously after Tom Frei, who was originally at MD Anderson, came over there and became my chief. I enjoyed working with Tom Frei, and he and I were sorry to depart, but I felt that it was appropriate to separate for the reasons that I explained—my daughter [with the congenital heart condition], the problems at Harvard and things of that nature, and the call from Wataru Sutow over here. And particularly when I had looked at this place and saw the facilities, the enthusiasm, what was being done and things of that nature, I said, “This is really at the forefront of cancer work now.” I was very happy to come here.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Let me just check in with you about the time. It’s about ten minutes of 12:00.
Norman Jaffe, MD :
I need to go to grand rounds.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Okay. What time do you need to leave?
Norman Jaffe, MD :
In about five minutes.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
In about five minutes, okay. Let me ask you one additional question, and then we can terminate the interview, and maybe we can make an appointment for another time. You’ve served under three MD Anderson presidents and sort of observed perhaps something about—
Norman Jaffe, MD :
Actually, it’s more accurate to say that I’ve served under two because Lee Clark was there, but he was retiring. Mickey [Charles A.] LeMaistre came on and then John Mendelsohn.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
I was wondering if you could make some observations about their leadership styles and what they contributed to the institution.
Norman Jaffe, MD :
I think each one has contributed to the institution in a different way. Lee Clark was responsible for its major initial growth and development, and I think he was very good, more for its growth and development than any scientific aspects. He really didn’t put a lot of science into it, but I’m really not in a strong position to comment on that because I didn’t work very much under Lee Clark. He more or less retired by the time I came here, and in fact, when Mickey LeMaistre came here, I often said to him, “Mickey, you have one great advantage. You and I came at the same time. That’s your claim to fame.” It’s a joke that he could take. I think he did development, and he also introduced scientific aspects. John Mendelsohn was greater, in my judgment, than Mickey LeMaistre. He expanded the development far greater, and he’s really a scientist. I don’t think he’s much of a clinician, incidentally, but I think he’s a good scientist. Mickey LeMaistre was not a scientist, more a clinician, but I didn’t see him do much clinical work. But each one contributed in the different aspects, and each one to me can be considered a giant in their different fields. As I say, I have worked under three. Well, not really three. It’s two, under LeMaistre and John Mendelsohn. I told John that his claim to fame is that he and I were at Harvard at the same time, but we never came across each other. That’s how I looked at it, and I have had a great relationship with each one. It’s not been a very intimate one, but it’s been nice. Take John. I used to speak him, and he said, “Do not call me Dr. Mendelsohn. My name is John.” He and I went to the Senate in Austin at one stage to ask for funds and things like that, after I had introduced one of the senators to my ski trip [whom] I found in Utah, and perhaps on another occasion we can talk about that.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Absolutely. Well, why don’t we close off the interview for today so that you can make your grand rounds.
Norman Jaffe, MD :
It’s been a real pleasure. Perhaps I’ve been rambling a little bit, but I apologize.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
No, not at all. I’m turning off the recorder at about 11:54. ( End of Audio Session 1)
Recommended Citation
Jaffe, Norman and Rosolowski, Tacey A. PhD, "Chapter 05: MD Anderson and The Department of Pediatric Oncology in the Late Seventies" (2012). Interview Chapters. 1143.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/1143
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