Chapter 01: Choosing Biochemistry: A Window into the Complexity of the Universe

Chapter 01: Choosing Biochemistry: A Window into the Complexity of the Universe

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In this chapter, Dr. Hung traces talks about his life and studies in Taiwan, before leaving for his Ph.D. program in the United States. He first talks about his family and what the perspective he gained on administration from the family business. He notes that his two years of military service (1973 – 1975) taught him discipline. He sings a few bars of “Fools Walk In” to demonstrate his good singing voice.

Dr. Hung then explains why he wanted to be a scientist and traces the growth of his interest in laboratory work and biochemistry from the National Taiwan University (B.S. Chemistry ’73) and Masters (’77). He explains his Master’s project: isolating a protein in snake venom to understand its structure and function as a cardiotoxin. Dr. Hung shares recollections of his student days. He defines primary, secondary and tertiary protein structure.

Identifier

HumgMC_01_20140220_C01

Publication Date

2-20-2014

City

Houston, Texas

Topics Covered

The Interview Subject's Story - Educational Path; Character, Values, Beliefs, Talents; Personal Background; Professional Path; Military Experience; Funny Stories; The Researcher; Overview; Definitions, Explanations, Translations; Inspirations to Practice Science/Medicine

Transcript

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

And we are now recording officially so I will put the identifier on and then we --- we’ll be ready to roll. So, I’m Tacey Ann Rosolowski, and today I’m interviewing Dr. Mien-Chie Hung. Am I pronouncing that correctly?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Correct.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Okay. For the Making Cancer History Voices Oral History Project run by the Historical Resources Center at MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, Texas. Dr. Hung came to MD Anderson in 1986 as an Assistant Professor in the Department of Tumor Biology and also in the Graduate School of Biomedical Science. He now serves as the Vice President for Bbasic Rresearch and he also holds the Ruth Legit Jones Distinguished Chair. He is a distinguished teaching professor and serves as Professor and Chair of the Department of Molecular and Cellular Oncology. Alright, and I’m getting the thumbs up.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Good.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Good. Sometimes I have to make some corrections there. This interview is taking place in Dr. Hung’s office in the Clark Clinic on the main campus of MD Anderson, and I just had to add the little detail that this was once Dr. Stephen TomasovekTomasovic’s office. A and he is the originator of this project really, so that’s kind of an interesting connection. This is the first of two planned interview sessions and today is February 20, 2014. The time is 3:12. So thank you very much Dr. Hung for taking the time for this.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Well, thanks for coming. This is a --- I think this is an important project for our institution, so I appreciate that you put your effort on this project, and I’m certainly honored to be able to help.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Oh, I’m delighted, and it’s just --- it’s so important to get all the different perspectives recorded, so thank you. And I know your time is --- is valuable and precious.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

No, this is important. We put ______ (0:01:49.7) on it.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Alright. Um Wwell I wanted to start with just some basic biographical and some personal background, so can you tell me um date of birth, where you were born?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Okay. I came from Taiwan. I was born in 1950, September 4th, and grew up in Taiwan. I have all my uh you know m middle school, little you know elementary school, I trained in Taiwan. I --- In Taiwan I graduated from National Taiwan University with a chemistry major at the --- for my Bachelor’s degree. Then after that I rece --- I also received a Master’s degree, major in biochemistry in the same university. Then --- oh, by the way, I spent two years in the army. Everybody --- Every healthy man in Taiwan at that time was supposed to serve in the army .

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Let --- Let me ask you, you know before we go on to your later educational experiences. Tell me a little bit about your family. Wa --- With --- Were your family members involved in the sciences?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Yes. Yes. No, actually I am the only so --- wWell, I should not say that. My elder brother was a major in chemistry,, but later on he didn’t really do science. He was doing business. Actually my other brother is in New York. He’s gone --- hHe’s running a real estate pretty well --- good uh business man and my --- you want me to say a little bit about my family?

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Please do. Yes.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Okay. You know, my parents ran a pretty successful bakery store, believe it or not. Unfortunately , , I didn’t lea --- I did not learn how to make it, but uh some of my, you know, uh brothers and sisters, they know how to do that, so we came from a business background. And, --- But I’m the --- probably at this moment, I’m the only one who stayed in academics, and so I --- there are actually four brothers including myself and two sisters.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Wow. Large family.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

And --- yYeah, large family. A, ant that time, it was not uncommon in Taiwan, because back to the old days, you know, people uh four or five kids in the family, big family at that time then. A and right now, of course, it’s --- it’s unusual. And so …

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Let me ask you, do you feel like that business background that you had in your family, did that have any influence on you, you know, today?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

I think it’s --- it’s actually a plus. B beecause it’s a broader view. Because uh uh if I think --- not a negative. bI think if people come from an academic background they --- uh their whole entire family, which is kind of nice-- but they look at things very academically. For example, inside our institution --- this is a big, you know, multiple- discipline institution, right? So a lot of times we are doing basic research. So,, and when we stay in the basic research that we are looking for research per se. B, but when you’re looking from an institutional point of view, in many occasions tbus, business concepts are important there and that help --- that help[s]. That helped at the time when I start to have a leadership position. When I look at things, I not only look at myself per se, but my department, our institution and --- and --- and so on. ,S so those business concepts that I grew up from my family --, because when I grew up, you know I certain[ly] learned, you know, in the family --, and that helped, --- that helped. And that helped me to very easily to fuse into this uh uh uh business kind of a model of a concept inside the institution.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

I was wondering about that because it --- it’s funny how, you know , these experiences that seem they come from left field. Actually they can be very, very important to your effectiveness.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Yes. Yes. Yes. And I personally feel that’s actually very positive. Very positive.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

What about your experiences in the army? Did that have any effect? Or how did that affect?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Say --- Say again.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Your experiences in the army. How did that affect you?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Yes. Yeah. At a time when, you know --- you know the relationship in Taiwan and China is, it’s not as sensitive now. But you know but at that time, we found it very sensitive. S so every man in --- in --- in --- in --- every young man in uh Taiwan, if you are healthy, you --- you’re supposed to serve you know two to three years [in the] army. So that two- year army experience was also very positive for my career. That is, [how] I learned discipline. You know, in the army you --- you don’t argue. When your uh uh captain tells you right turn, right turn --- there’s no Wwhy do I turn right? Of course, this is very different from science. Where science --- wWhen I got to science, of course , I ask --- we ask questions, Wwhy? We ask “why” all the time. but But research-wise we still have to have some sort of discipline, and that’s what I learned a lot from that when I was in the army. So that probably affected me because I’m a pretty good citizen, okay? A and so, I usually --my immediate supervisors stop to me--, of course, this is a free country. Sometime I may ask, you know, Wwhy you want to do that, thing like that. B but I --- usually -- I follow the order.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

What were the years when you were in the army?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Okay. Let me think about this.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

I didn’t see it on your CVm otherwise I wouldn’t put you on the spot.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Seven7 --- 19 --- Let me see. 1973 to 1975. If it’s wrong I’ll correct that. It’s --- If it’s wrong it’s probably plus a couple of years. Then after that I went to a Master’s program. A annd then after that I came to United States.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Now tell me a bit about your education. Um what W hat about the National University --- the National Taiwan University chemistry. Why did you choose to major in chemistry?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Okay. So National Taiwan University -- I have to brag a little bit. At that time --, and at this moment, it’s still correct , that it is the number one #1 university in Taiwan, okay? And then it was not easy to get into that university. And --- the --- I --- ever since I was little -- although my family was a business, --- running a business-- but I always wanted to be a scientist. You know, when you are an elementary school kid, you know, every time when a new teacher comes in, the first thing, they want to know you --. Tthey ask you, Wwhat you do you want to be in the future, right? So most of time, when I wrote it, I wrote the essay about how I imagined I wanted to be a scientist. So every --- sSometimes occasionally I would write --- I would say I want to be a musician --- to be a mu ---. I don’t know any of the instruments, but I like to sing. I’m a good singer. Uh I sing karaoke, but I never have any professional training. I wish I had gotten it, but I didn’t.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

I won’t ask you to sing. I promise.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

I can sing now.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Do you want to?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

*Dr. Hung singing* Wise men say, only fools rush in. Anyway.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

[Laughing] Thank you so much. That’s fantastic.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

No, no, no. Many friends told me --- ask me to do Elvis Presley. A although I’m getting old so my voice is not as good as before but, you know, it’s okay. It’s okay. But I --- I --- I always wanted to be a scientist, so …

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

What --- Let me ask you, why? I mean …

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Oh. Hey. You asked the right person. Because I always imagined science is the field that makes a lot of things that are impossible become possible. A, and that’s still --- regardless if you are a physicist, chemistry, biology, or biochemistry-- that’s still true. I mean for example, that when --- when the first radio was discovered, it’s impossible. At that time nobody could imagine it. How could you, right? But now look at about all these cellphones. I still remember that when I was a high school kid, and my elder brother was studying in United States, and he wanted to call home. He had to write a letter to my father saying, Sso and so time I’m going to call. It was very expensive. Whole family was waiting next to the telephone, right? Then he called. When it rang, then my father picked it up and said a few words -- and now we’re a big family. My mother, my brother, my sister, everybody says one sentence. Hello pretty much, then hang up. That’s all you can do. B but every day…[Dr. Hung gestures]

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

(approx. 0:10:01) Yeah, the cell phone.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

(approx. 0:10:02) cCell phone, right? Aand it’s very cheap, too. So now that’s something, and then I mention now, cancer?. W--- well, cancer thirty 30 years ago, people didn’t even want to talk about it, because you think, I did something wrong with my last life. But right now we all know what S on the table. How many survivors in --- cancer survivors in the United States? Fifteen15 million, right? That’s a large number, right? And so, those things turning from impossible to possible come from where? Come from science. That’s probably not the only reason, but that’s one of the major reasons drawing me to --- to want to be a scientist. Because you can make the impossible possible, and really ch --- know what happens in nature --- exists in nature and also create something which didn’t exist.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

What --- When did you first start seeing that you had talent, you know, gift for this?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

I never see I have talent. Even now.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Really? But I mean what --- what gave you ---

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

No, I’m just joking

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

But I mean what --- what gave you --- whatWhat gave you the sense? Well you know some people are very --- they don’t want to say they have any talent so maybe --- but I’m glad you’re not one of them. So when did you start seeing you know like “Wow I can do this! I can make things happen in this field.” How early was that?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Let me see. Let me think about it. I did always dream of being a scientist, especially when I was a high school kid. I was --- really loved chemistry and physics. At that time, biology was not --you know, it about. Llife sciences came in a little bit later. So I did always dream that. You you know --f. for For example, how big is the uUniverse? We just --- just don’t know, right? Peculiar. One, another one, -- another. It’s unlimited, but still at this moment, we still don’t know. Right?. We talk about bacteria. How small is that, and we talk about atoms. Remember at that time we said cell. It’s a cell, atom, you have a neutron, right? But later on you know, -- I’m out of date now. They have how many particles? Those are smaller than this, and it’s all very interesting. And that’s just in nature right?. And so those --- you know thosthose just attracted me, but I had not thought about whether I’m very good at that. Well actually, might be I should not say that. When I’m in high school and --- and we had to pass a very competitive entrance examination in Taiwan. A, and --- and I told you that the university and the department I was in was top of the line. It was --- It was usually like we said the number one#1 in that kind of department, okay? So, I was very --- yeah, I almost forgot it. I’m glad you asked. When I was a senior high school student just right --- right before the year to past the entrance examination, I think our --- my classmates considered me as a genius in mathematics. Or --- I forgot it now already because I --- and actually I think it’s not because I’m genius. It just because I studied so hard, so I knew so much stuff. So I --- everything is in my brain so I can think very quickly. So many of my classmates couldn’t imagine that --how come my mathematics was so good. I --- I remembered there was something --- one time the test was so difficult everybody was thinking they’d flunk or something, but I still got a ninety90 something points. And so. But that’s --- I don’t know. That’s rather irrelevant now. You know there was one period of time when my mathematics was very good, and then after I passed the entrance exam and that’s when I went to the chemistry department. I liked you know chemistry. I was very fascinated that in chemistry, like first you add the reagents together, then you polymerize. Some solutions become solidified, and they change color, and you can make soap, right? And clean your --. And that’s --- in the lab we can do that. It’s --- It’s a lot of fun. It’s a lot of fun there. And then until I become senior college student we started to be exposed to biochemistry, life science. Oh, then I really fall in love with it, because at that time large molecules, macro molecules _______ proteins, nuclear assays. So at the time when I studied chemistry it’s also more about molecules. You have a science background, right?

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Mmhmm.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Yeah. So also more molecules. But then when you st --- sta --- start biochemistry, wait a minute your large molecule, a protein, from _________ builds as a tertiary structure and these two structures become a protein, and these proteins _______ activity, and _____ activity make this subject become the other subject. Those things really attracted me.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

This may seem like a crazy question, but do you see these things in your mind like images --- pictures of these?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Images?

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Like pictures in your mind of these big systems. Can you like close your eyes and like seem them?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Yeah. Real visual, those things, yeah.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

It’s a visual. Yeah.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Everything. Those things. Yeah.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

I’m just curious because some people in these fields are very visual thinkers. You know they just --- they get their ideas in a visual form, not just words or symbols but in images. Yeah.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Yeah. And --- And at that time I really fall in love and when I was a senior high --- senior at college and the --- well a senior and junior, right --- junior and senior, that third3rd and fourth4th year. So I fell in love in those biology and chemistry, and those large molecules, the protein structures, and the --- and the nuclear assays. At that time nuclear assays are not very --- limited, --- very, very limited. B ut when I came to the United States, I went --- I went to Brandeis_________ (0:15:26.2) for Ph.D. training, and then at that time molecular biology --the cloning had just come out, so I was then poised for moving to that field.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Um nNow I want to make sure that we kind of get all the relevant information about your undergrad and then your Master’s program. Is there anything else you’d like to say about how that period of study influenced your future directions before we move on to your Ph.D. program?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Because that, my undergraduate --especially in the Master’s program is where I really studied biochemistry. Okay so my, --- my college chemistry, but in the third3rd, fourth4th year in college I really lot --- liked life science. So I’m not a very good student in --- based on the transcript at that time. B but every summer, I spent a lot of time reading those things which I feel are interesting. And so then after the two years of army service, I passed, you know grad school and entrance examination. Went back to the same department. W, well not to the same --s. Same college, but a different department called Institution of Biology Science and Chemistry. so So I studied for a Master’s degree. You know at that time what I studied --- remember I told you I was interested in protein structure, right? At that time people in Taiwan, you know, what kind of protein they studied? They studied snake venom protein. So snake venom --- You know when a snake bites people, the reason --- Snake actually is a very nice animal. If you don’t touch them, they don’t bother you. But when they bite you, the --- the toxic stuff coming out, those those are proteins. Those are snake venom proteins, and a lot of time --because Taiwan used to have a lot of snakes, but no longer could be the case. So at that time, we actually --- I saw --- I saw that the snake venom had a specific protein and tried to understand the structure of the protein and function of protein. The snake --- snake venom protein research in Taiwan is pretty well known because tho ---- those geographical issues. I actually studyied studiedonestudied one of the proteins called cardiotoxin from the--- you know I guess I could say what kind of snake?. It’s one of the very ugly snakes. Usually when people talk about snakes they talk about them.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Oh, like a pit viper?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Something like that.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Yeah they have a really ugly face.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

And so then we --- we used the physical method to understand the structure, then we tried to understand the functiofunction,n and it was very interesting. I was in heaven. I have one paper a long time ago. We modified this protein, kind of partially destroyed it, and so --- so when we modified this protein, the protein function was lost. Function meaning the toxicity. You know if you --- they don’t --- bBut the structure was still there. So at that time we used --- I used that one to e --- to immune the animal. So I was dreaming, hey this could be a vaccine. because Because this one has no toxicity anymore, but the structure is there, so you still can inject it into an animal, and the animal would start producing antibodies, right? So --- But you know we didn’t further pursue it, and also nobody was going to do this vaccine. Come on. It’s different for a virus or ________ , no the N1 virus. I mean snake venom is --- snake --- there’s not too many people being bitten by snakes anymore, so anyway.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Still it’s another example of making the poss --- impossible possible in science.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Yeah, yeah. So --- So we all dreamed all this, and I wanted to understand what the structure was, and why this protein caused this function, and also can you modify it and make the toxic compound non-toxic, and can that help human health, okay? So that was interesting.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

The whole package.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Interesting that --- It was just when I was especially in the Master’s program, because my Master’s program in that institution was in a brand new building which was actually the first building that had central air conditioning in our university. Before that we didn’t have air conditioning. We had an electric fan but we don’t have it. Therefore as a peer --- a master student at that time, I slept in the laboratory. Because I can go to --- my dormitory is not too far. I walk or ride a bicycle, but --- but the thing is in my dormitory I don’t have air conditioning there. Okay, so --- so I only went back to my dormitory once a mon --- once a week or two. We don’t have laundry. Laundry we had to do by ourselves. so I only back went there to clean my laundry. I stayed because the building was brand new and everything had uh cen --- centralized air conditioning and we had large couch like this type. When I slept on the couch, it was better.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

All the comforts of home.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

(0:20:19..3) It was better than my dormitory, so I just slept there. And then because it’s a brand new building it was nice there, and they have a shower room --for safety reasons. Perfect when the students stayed there. A and so we have --- our year I had quite a few classmates. We all worked very hard. We all stayed there in the lab because it’s very comfortable. Especially in Taiwan, you know, Taiwan is the same. The weather is the same as Houston. Especially summertime. So I’m glad I talked to you because all this is history. I don’t remember it now. If I don’t talk to you I would not think about those things. Yeah, I stayed in the lab. The couch. I mo --- moved two couches together, and it was very soft and then --- then you sat next to the equipment. That was very fancy equipment and my supervisor told me the equipment lasted only a certain period of time. If you turned it on, you better leave it on for a long time , like 15 hours or something like that. You don’t want to turn it on one hour, turn it off. The ---the light --- the life of the lamp is going to be shortened. And those were very expensive. Of course at that time everything was expensive in Taiwan. Well not especially just back to that time. So I slept next to the equipment. When I woke up early in the morning, first thing --- first thing before I went to brush my teeth and those things, I turned on the equipment, then turned over. You had to let the equipment warm up. Then I go to --- Then I go get ready and come back --- yeah, back to the office.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Perfect --- Perfect lifestyle for the student.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Per --- Per --- If you like to write down there what that equipment --- that equipment is still being used for. That is CDORD.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

What is it? C?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

C-D-O-R-D. The ORD name is not used, but CD is still being used. Circular Dichroism --- Dichroism. This one is still available for those few people who study it. This is the equipment to study the secondary structure of the protein. You know, protein structure have what we called the primary sequence, secondary structure, and tertiary structure, and this equipment is the one which can provide a database to analyze the secondary structure.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Why is the secondary structure important?

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Okay. All the structures are important. You know the immuno --- the protein is from immunosequence, right? So in immunosequence, the first one is just like a train. The first one is this one, the second one --- The first one is A, second one C, third one D and so on. This sequence we call the primary sequence. Then after that they folded it. They folded at certain times. Six structures. like tThis region is a helix. Just like helix and this outer region is like this kind. So this --- this is a local --- this is a partial structure called a secondary structure. Then tertiary structure meaning the entire protein. That’s called tertiary.

T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:

Oh, okay like the gestalt of it. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. So the understanding of proteins at that time, and really the ability to do modern biochemistry, really relied heavily on this kind of technology being available.

Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:

Oh, yeah. And --- And those technology I improved a lot now, and they still, for example --tertiary structure, people use x-ray. A and then you know people in ________ and now it’s become very, very popular. At that time it’s --- it’s a research tool, and it’s not easy to determine a tertiary structure at that time. It’s just a long project but now it’s become just (snapping fingers) yeah, x-ray.

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Chapter 01: Choosing Biochemistry: A Window into the Complexity of the Universe

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