Chapter 11: Co-Director of the Women’s Cancer Moon Shot Program: An Environment of Team Science and Translational Research
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Description
Dr. Hung discusses Dr. Ronald DePinho’s Moon Shot programs. He explains that ovarian cancer and breast cancer have been paired in one Moon Shot because of similarities in their molecular profiles. He explains how the Moon Shots Program is structured administratively and practically with leaders and researchers drawn from surgery, gynecology and other specialties. He notes that fundraising is taking place now.
Dr. Hung next talks about the collaborative mindset the Moon Shots require, creating changes to MD Anderson. He compares the Moon Shots and SPORE grants (Specialized Programs of Research Excellence, administered by the NIH).
Identifier
HumgMC_02_20140307_C11
Publication Date
3-7-2014
City
Houston, Texas
Interview Session
Topics Covered
The Interview Subject's Story - The Researcher; The Researcher; Overview; Definitions, Explanations, Translations; Discovery and Success; Professional Path; On Research and Researchers; Understanding Cancer, the History of Science, Cancer Research; Formative Experiences; Discovery, Creativity and Innovation; Healing, Hope, and the Promise of Research; Building/Transforming the Institution; Multi-disciplinary Approaches; Growth and/or Change
Transcript
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
So, when Ron DePinho [oral history interview] says, Moon Shot – because he --- he like to use Moon Shot, ____ 1:38.13. That concept is there, that’s correct. He said low hanging fruit. What I say, low hanging fruit ____ 1:38.24 work. _____ you don’t want to develop drug, because that takes 20 years. Use an existing drug to look ____ 1:38.33 We are looking for the opportunity to ____. It’s already there.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Now, you’re Co-Director, is that correct? Of the …
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Yeah. For --- for Moon Shot.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
…Women’s Cancer Moon Shot?
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Okay. We have about 15 minutes left. Why don’t you --- do you want to tell me about that?
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Yeah.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Okay, great.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
The --- the Moon Shot, I think the concept is great. Because if somebody should do it, MD Anderson should be the place to do it. I’m not sure about saying this is the only place that can do it, but MD Anderson is certainly one of the very few places that can do it. And Ron --- Dr. DePinho came here to ____ 1:39:08 This concept is great because you focused it. And then you conceptually emphasize less --- for many people doing research. It’s just doing research, just doing what I’m interested in. But this is Cancer Center, patients are there, and there are ways we can, in a much shorter term, help patients… to --- to identify them, treat them or taking them back ____ 1:39:36. But if we don’t have a structure to push that --it will happen, but it may happen 50 years from now. But with the Moon Shots, this says, I’m going to be using whatever resources we have to focus on this major cancer type and to make them --originally not treatable-- but treatable. For example, for the Women’s Moon Shot, what we focus on triple negative --why we focus triple negative? There’s no drug. We’re done. But 10 years from now, I --- I would imagine 10 year --- years from now, if it’s still called triple negative, it’s shame on us.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Right. That’s a failure, right.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
It’s shame on us. We’re not going to make it a triple negative. We are going to make it A positive, B positive, C positive. And then, we will have th --- therapy to target A,B, and C, and D. And we’re already ongoing. And this now. I --- I ….
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
So this is the work --- the work on triple negative, is part of the Moon Shot project.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Yeah. The Moon --- the Women’s Moon Shot is triple neg --- okay. The Women’s Moon Shot combine both breast cancer and ovarian cancer together. And the reason is not because both of the disease are a woman’s disease. The reason is because of molecular profiling. So now, we know a lot of data, right? The molecular profiling, meaning the ovarian cancer --- this particular type of ovarian cancer is called high grade serial ovarian cancer.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
High grade ….
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Minch Serial. S-E-R
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
S …
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
I-A-L
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Serial …
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Serial ovarian cancer, and breast cancer triple negative. These two types of cancer, they happen to be all in women, but they are special group of the breast cancer and ovarian cancer. And their molecular pro --- profiles are very similar. Therefore, they are two different disease in breast and ovarian….
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Right.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
… but for molecular terminology, they may be the same disease.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Interesting.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
And so, by putting them together, that you can cross-fertilize it. Minch The knowledge we learn from breast triple negative may be applied for --- to high grade serial ovarian cancer.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Can you --- can you identify for me, you know, in simple terms, what are some of those similar --- what are the similarities?
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Okay. For example when people take note, you know, --- do you know TCGA?
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Uh-uh [negative].
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Okay. TCGA is like --- it’s --- The Cancer Genomic Catalog.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Oh, okay.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Okay. So, there are this type of database from United States and from Europe. So what they did is put 500 breast tumors, 500 ovarian cancers, 500 something – to make complete sequences. And then analyzed all the datedata. Then all the data, made it available for people to analyze. And this is a totally non-biased approach to put all data there. But when the people are buying from many people who analyze it. They start to find, oh, wait a minute, this gene and this gene and this gene and this gene are highly mutated or activated in this cancer. In this cancer, they are very similar. They are very similar. For example, ____ 1:42:46 mutation, PI 3 kinase, and there are a whole bunch of --- that’s why I call profile. Gene expression profile. Those profiles, between this particular breast cancer and that particular ovarian cancer, are very similar molecule-wise. Very similar. So we call their signature very similar. And so for molecular biologists or for many scientists, they should be the same disease, except they --- this disease was occurring in different organs. But they were the same disease because they --- the gene which involved is the same or highly similar. And it’s different from breast cancer, saying, out of 100 breast cancer patient come in, some are ER positive, some are HER2 positive, some are triple negative, right? So they are --- we thought with the breast cancer, they’re the same disease. No, they are different disease. Molecular profile, they are different disease. But for Women Moon Shot is, we put breast and ovarian these two subgroup because these two subgroup are very difficult disease to cure at this moment, both the breast and ovarian … and of course, ovarian is worse than breast. Okay, you know that, I mean. And because of the diagnosis, it’s more difficult. But the molecular profiles, they are very similar. So with the Women Moon Shot putting them in it together, it makes a lot of sense to understand these two diseases, breast and ovarian grouped together. They --- we can cross fertilize. We can share and now we’re going to actually, almost forced, every time we’re going to do something with breast, we have to do with ovarian because they are same. They’re the same.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
So how are the --- how is this project being structured? You know, like how are you approaching this?
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Okay. So at this moment, you know there are 3 leaders which I identify at upper level and Cormeo, myself, and _____ 1:44:23.6 and ____ primarily in ovarian, and I’m in breast but I’m --- I’m not a clinician. Most of the Moon Shot leaders, as you notice, they’re all clinicians. Because, you know, the Moon Shot questions have to be clinically relevant. And I was then invitedidentified probably because I’m a good scientist and I’ve been very translational, I’ve been working on breast cancer. And, at this moment, the Moon Shot structure is, we have three leaders but we are waiting --- we would like to have recruit one more leader on the breast clinical side. Okay? And then by working together, we ____ 1:45:01. And three of us in the institution, we don’t have a real structure but we have leader, but we have mission. And then three of us are working very closely with the breast medical oncologist, breast surgeons, and gynecologist people, and then identifying the so-called Flash project.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
They’re Flash ….
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Flash, yes. Two --- we have two major projects we have ongoing. These two projects, we call the Flash because we put effort in it and show that we can --- within a reasonable short time, come out with a significant impact on patient.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Oh, okay.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
And --- but we started this one but, we are doing fundraising now, trying to expand more, like the one concept I mentioned to you ____ 1:45:44. Any one of them in the lab discover something and really can in a short period of time benefit the cancer patient we will do it. And that we are ---the n Moon Shot, we are not trying to develop a new --- new therapeutic target and then develop a drug 20 years later. I mean, it’s okay but that’s not our priority. Our priority is taking any advantage --- any knowledge we have now, and assembling it together, and they benefit the patient right away. And so --- so with this structure available, MD Anderson is going to leading among many cancer center. Because what --- many cancer centers, we’re ____ at, you know, who’s doing what. But we actually developed this culture that by aiming it to benefit cancer patients, sooner is better. You don’t have to develop a drug to --- if --- if you needed to develop a drug, that’s fine. But before that, before you do that, just take advantage similar to what I just mentioned.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Right.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Those --- we could assemble those data which may only take only a couple year and that can benefit patient right away.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Why not take advantage of that?
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Why not? Yeah. And that --- do we have this concept? We do, but we don’t have the vision like --- and of course, the capacity, you know, Ron [DePinho] coming here, and he’s president, he has a lot of resources here. I said, let’s do it. We were thinking about it in a very small scale, but when he said, let’s do it, with his support and we work with development with if we do it right. Any project could go wrong and not be done right, but the concept’s there. If we do it right, we will be very efficiently using money to benefit cancer patients.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Now with the fundraising, how is that working? Do you --- is that working within the Moon Shots or is Development doing that? ….
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
The Development office, they --- the Development office, you know, MD Anderson has a large Development office structure. And they --- the Development office, they --- they have their specific mission, here, there, here, there. And Moon Shot is one of them. And so we --- no, they talk about, say, okay, you know, what kind of project, what kind of scale we’re looking for? So we work with the Development office, you know, closely, and whole develop and we certainly should spend time to do it and to develop it. In addition to the fundraising, we certainly ____ with some concepts which are a little more premature. It is more in the research that we write grant. We use Moon Shot money to do something almost directly. When I say almost directly, meaning not directly for patients but almost directly that can benefit patient. So that’s concept. And then if we have idea, then we still write the grant to support. Unless in the future we have fundraising resources more and more, then in certain case, support some of the more fundamental science to move into clinical trials. But otherwise, at this moment, we all those --- ___ 1:48:32 I mentioned to the concept, we will develop that writing grant. But, once it’s come to that clinical trial stage, we go to clinical trial to test patients again, and that’s the Moon Shot budget. And so with the Moon Shots, there also a very important concept. That is, when I am talking about a project that I do, that’s my project, that’s all mine. I work with it, you know, my collaborator. But, Moon Shot, is no one’s project. The Moon Shot is the Moon Shot. It’s Ron DePinho‘s concept. We are all doing Moon Shot. We bring those people who ___ 1:49:05 who are the best people in science to --- to do this job, let them do it. You know, we manage that and then we identify the right direction to go, the direction which we --- we three are service leaders but we don’t really grab that money that comes to everyone.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Right. Has that --- has that been different, you know, as a team coming together, has that created a different mentality, you know, that lack of ownership?
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Culture. Culture. It does. And it’s developing now. At the very beginning, everybody needed to learn. Most of the time, you know, it’s human being’s nature and, you know, you have to develop something for which you have ownership. But Moon Shot doesn’t look like , _______ 1:49:49that.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Yeah.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
And then we -- at the very beginning, it’s difficult to concep --- the concept was difficult going to be accepted, but now, when we started working, it’s moving now. And I think this is an unbelievable concept that MD Anderson has. And I can share with you another one. There’s a type of grant which was developed 20 years ago by NCI called a SPORE grant. You know SPORE, right? MD Anderson has more SPOREs than anyone else. Because MD Anderson has more than 10 SPORE grant being funded by the NCI, the National Cancer Institute. SPORE, at the time when it started, the concept is to bring clinicians and basic scientists together. They on purpose make it a rule that when you write a grant, the SPORE grant, every project have to have at least two leaders, one scientist and one clinician. One scientist and one clinician. One scientist and one clinician. That’s the rule. And they --ten years ago, the scientist and the clinician were not as open to one another as they are now. But SPORE had that culture. And MD Anderson was always in the forefront in this new concept in terms of team science, in terms of working together. And many other places are still far behind with that, because everybody has ownership. SPORE already developed like a concept, say, working together, working together on a specific disease. And then, the Moon Shot come on, actually to certain degree. The spirit is similar but Moon Shot is on a much larger scale. The Moon Shot moves forward. In the past, at that time, we liked to see translation. We wanted the lab scientist to go to clinical, and the clinical back to lab science. But Moon Shot is --- we want to put it together so we are going to benefit the patient. And we only use the knowledge that we have right now. We have the Moon Shot. Twenty years ago we could not do the Moon Shots. We would have been wasting money because the knowledge was not enough now. But now is the right time. So if we manage well, and I believe we will, the MD Anderson Moon Shot project is going bring MD Anderson to a different level. MD Anderson is --- in the cancer area --- in --- in entire world, I don’t mean the US, ____ 1:52:00, and people have ____ been jealous. We can do a lot of things other people can’t do. And that is not only because of our structure, our capacity, our leadership. It also includes the culture we have been developing at MD Anderson. We created this culture before other people. I’m a basic scientist. When I come here, I only think about my own laboratory, my own publication. From this time you’ve been talking to me, do you think I’m that kind of almighty person?
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
No way.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Because I’ve been here 28 years. I have been benefited by institution, actually get me to think this way. Which is good. Which is good. I’m not kidding. When I come here, I only care about my own lab, and my career. But now, I look at very different because we’re MD Anderson.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Yeah.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
And it’s very difficult for me to leave MD Anderson. A lot of cancer centers have much better pay, much better leadership position. I’m not saying go to other place _____ concept. But I kind of enjoy so much including all my education. I --- I already told you I train more trainee than _____record number of students. Nobody could compete with me.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Well, and I can tell just, you know, putting what you said earlier about education in the context of what you just said about the Moon Shots. I mean, you’re clearly educating the next generation in the MD Anderson mentality.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Yeah.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
And I mean, that’s it, how to pass that on that --- that culture.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
And --- and I feel so honored that I have been selected for the Moon Shot leader. They selected --- they selected me based on something based on the track record. And then, I can contribute and can involve this --- and every time when I involve something, I learn. As I told you, I train PhD student, but they teach me. I joined the breast program, so I learn. And then serving as a Moon Shot leader, I learn, too. I am involved in the forefront of the new concept, say, no ownership. ___ 1:54:11 patient only, right? And then is it wrong? No, it’s right. Right? I feel it’s right, it’s incorporated into my grain and that’s now the --- the way I think. So, the Moon Shot, we --- we still work very hard on grants, and to do all these things. Then new patient project, the one I just mentioned, the signal _____ 1:54:30 expertise and then if I use my expertise to contribute and once it’s ready to go to trial, then that’s Moon Shot. And --- and that’s perfect. And that’s perfect. And MD Anderson --- this number one cancer center is going to be number one forever. I hope so.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
That seems like the perfect place to end today.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Thank you. And I say I enjoy to talk to you and then because the last time, I think all those memory of old stuff and then here, talk about exciting stuff.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Exciting stuff, yeah.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
And then the future.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Yeah.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
And even this.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Yes.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Minch I think talk about in my committee for long time
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Yeah. No, it’s very exciting. Very exciting. Well, I hope we can schedule another session because I would like to hear ….
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
I would be more than happy to chat with you.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Great.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Yeah. We kind of like friends now.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Great.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Just let me know, and I’ll buy you a Starbuck coffee.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
(Laughter). Alright. Well, thank you. Well, I’m --- I’m turning off the recorder at, let’s see, two minutes after four. And thank you again, Dr. Hung.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Sure.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
… it’s been really, really wonderful. Thank you.
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
I --- I hope ____ at you. I know this is ____ concept, right? And so now, you interview --- how many people have you interviewed?
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Let’s see. Well, it’s 49, and then I have a few --- add more people so…
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Hold on, how many ____ 1:55:47?
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Well, I --- I --- hopefully the project will be funded another year and we’ll just keep interviewing because, you know, there are lot of people to --- that have made contributions. I mean --- and what’s really, really interesting is, you know, not only from the side of researchers, clinicians, but I’ve been interviewing, for example, Bill DanioDaigneau, who is head of Operations …
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Ah, ah, ah, ah.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
… during, you know, during that period _____
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
Different --- oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
… when John Mendelsohn expanded the institution. And to hear about the creation of the emergency plan. There were no emergency plans. To hear about, you know, putting all of those 10 floors on the Alkek Hospital. I mean, fundamental stuff. I mean, how to take the computer system and put it into a safe place. I mean, that --- you never think about that but that’s so essential to help this place ____
Mien-Chie Hung, PhD:
MD Anderson has a --- a lot of good stuff because we are …
T.A. Rosolowski, PhD:
Really, really ____
Recommended Citation
Hung, Mien-Chie PhD and Rosolowski, Tacey A. PhD, "Chapter 11: Co-Director of the Women’s Cancer Moon Shot Program: An Environment of Team Science and Translational Research" (2014). Interview Chapters. 1163.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/1163
Conditions Governing Access
Open
