Chapter 09: Perspectives on Serving as an Expert in Lawsuits
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Description
Dr. Leeds begins this chapter by expressing his concerns about the impact that lawsuits brought against physicians can have on research. He discusses two cases in which he was called to provide expert testimony.
Identifier
LeedsNE_02_20170620_C09
Publication Date
6-20-2017
Publisher
The Making Cancer History® Voices Oral History Collection, The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center
City
Houston, Texas
Interview Session
Topics Covered
The Interview Subject's Story - Overview; Overview; Critical Perspectives; The Professional at Work; Activities Outside Institution; The History of Health Care, Patient Care; Funny Stories
Creative Commons License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License.
Disciplines
History of Science, Technology, and Medicine | Oncology | Oral History
Transcript
Norman Leeds, MD:
And, you know, I worry about the lawsuits. I mean, they come up with these things. They want to sue doctors for drugs that do... But, you know, until they—they’ve done some good, and, you know, this is the risk. There’s always a risk–benefit. A patient takes a risk. When you’re on a drug, you never know what can happen. And when I see these—I watch these programs, “If you have this, and if you’ve taken this drug, we’re going to sue them.” I mean, this is terrible. This stops advances, because people say, “We don’t want to...” And I think they’ve got to stop. There is no malpractice. You’ve used it because it’s the best you’ve got at the time. These same lawyers who are making all this money don’t care. It’s just how much money do they earn, I mean, on this, and that bothers me. And it also obstructs. People are afraid to do certain things because there is risk. But everything is risk. If you do nothing, there’s a risk. If you do something there’s... I mean, this hasn’t been pointed out, but I think if I were a lawyer I—on the other side you’d point out if you didn’t do this, if these things weren’t available, many patients would have died. And new drugs come along that are better, but that’s the same in everything we have. Nothing lasts—penicillin was great, and then it caused problems, you know, and allergies and so forth. And, you know, that’s the same with everything. Nothing la... And the infections and the tumors learn how to deal with the therapy. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Do you feel that the informed consent processes in institutions, and the IRBs, help protect researchers against those lawsuits?
Norman Leeds, MD:
No. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. No, you don’t.
Norman Leeds, MD:
No. No. I think—I saw a classic TV program on suits, and actually they were—it was Denton Cooley, the famous Texas [heart surgeon]. Probably one of the great heart surgeons of all time, Denton Cooley. And he talked about having this patient, including the patient’s rabbi, and they prepared this huge list of problems that if you operate on the heart these things can happen. Everything conceivable was in that risk essential, right? The patient signed. Something went wrong. They sued [anyway]. So no matter what, you know... People will sue. If you can, you will. Do you always collect? No. In fact, those were the only cases I really tried to help. I did not like malpractice, but if a doctor was being sued and I thought it was wrong, I would take [the case]. I didn’t like dealing with lawyers, because they’re not really considering the outcome—the true outcome, which is the risk. It’s risk and reward. You don’t know what the risk is. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. What was the first occasion when you were called to testify at one of these lawsuits?
Norman Leeds, MD:
I guess the first time was when I was a fellow, and just—and... And a neurosurgeon called me about a stroke case, and asked if I could represent him. And I said—I talked to him, look—I said yes. And they brought a—you know, and I had done thousands of angiograms. And they brought a neurosurgeon, the other side, who was close to 90, and I guess I was 39. And, you know, and he’s talking about a hundred cases. I sat there, and when the judge—when they asked me, I had done, you know, almost a thousand. I didn’t—you know, he was a man that was three times my age, and supposedly trained with Cushing, which I doubted, and I said—and I had to say how many cases, you know. And I felt embarrassed, because, you know... And then his lawyer asked me, he said, “Dr. Leeds, do you ever make a mistake?” And I knew that was a double-edged sword. If I said “No, I never make a mistake”—you know, I thought this all over very quickly—the lawyer would say “Ladies and gentlemen, this doctor thinks he’s God. He never makes a mistake.” That was not the answer. If I said I make a mistake, then “Why isn’t he wrong in this case?” So I said, “The answer is yes and no.” He didn’t want that. You know, lawyers only—always want a [yes or no]. I said, “I can’t give you a yes or a no. I mean, a yes or a no, it is a yes-slash-no.” The judge figured it out, what I had figured out, and he looked at me and he said, “Doctor, do judges ever make mistakes?” And I looked at him and I said, “When I’m in your court, sir, no.” (laughter) The judge laughed. The jury laughed. The lawyer stopped. Because there was no answer to that question is what I’m saying. You have to know... It’s like people say—they ask you about a book, and if you say you believe in that Dr. Smith is a world authority, and they say, “Here, he disagrees with you on this,” so what I usually say is “Dr. Smith is a great authority, but do I agree with everything he writes? No. Do I disagree with everything? No. But he is one of the authorities.” And no one is always right or always wrong. There’s a mixed opinion on things. You know, you look at things, there are two answers on many things, both of which could be right. So I know I don’t know everything, and I don’t know what’s coming. But I don’t like lawyers. I’ll tell you the best case I had. I had a case where they called me in to look at a cervical spine. It was said she had a fracture of the spine, and her head would fall off. She happened to be a Rockefeller relative in an automobile accident. Well, the—I was working for the defense, and the lawyer brought me the films. I looked at the films, and I said, “No, no, this is not a fracture. This is a congenital anomaly, well-known.” And I brought the research books to show the picture that was identical to this. And I said, “This is not a fracture. This is an anomaly of the cervical spine that this patient has.” Well, you know, and that was that. So the other side says, “How do you know that, doctor? How can we prove that?” I said, “I wouldn’t want to prove it, because we’re only going to do harm by operating. This is a normal... And I’ve brought the example from the literature to show—just to verify what I’m saying.” The lawyer almost kissed me, you know, before, because now he had a defense. Well, they did pay off, because she had an accident, but it wasn’t the payment that lawyer was expecting, because, yes, she suffered an injury, but not with her head falling off. And he... (laughs) It was only funny in that when the case was, you know—when the jury stepped out, and I was leaving with the lawyer, the lawyer for the other side came up to me and congratulated me, because it was obvious—he said, “You did a won...” But boy, I mean, he made me sweat. But that’s a good lawyer. So I—you know, there—it’s not easy, and it’s, you know... And there is never always yes and no. There are always two sides, and you have to amplify that for the jury to benefit the patient. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. How many cases have you testified on?
Norman Leeds, MD:
I don’t know. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. A lot of ’em?
Norman Leeds, MD:
But many. But mostly because I thought the—I testified—I didn’t have to testify, but they asked me to consult. The lawyer actually called me here for Dr. DeBakey. And I wouldn’t have done it, but since it was Dr. DeBakey I couldn’t say no, so I did look at the case. But fortunately they didn’t need me, so I didn’t have to go any further. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yeah, it’s interesting experience. I’ve never talked to somebody who has—or at least the conversation has never, you know, touched on any kind of testifying in legal cases before. I’m sure I’ve interviewed people who have, but it’s not come up.
Norman Leeds, MD:
No, it’s just something—you know, I don’t like doing it because lawyers are just trying to... And good lawyers win bad cases, and good lawyers lose good cases. I mean, you know, the jury hears, the jury doesn’t hear. You do the best you can.
Recommended Citation
Leeds, Norman MD and Rosolowski, Tacey A. PhD, "Chapter 09: Perspectives on Serving as an Expert in Lawsuits" (2017). Interview Chapters. 1309.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/1309
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