Chapter 11 : Some Views on Change and a Big Vision for the Future of the Neuro-Services
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Description
Dr. Leeds begins this chapter by talking about changes in Neuroradiology when Dr. William Murphy stepped down as chair, succeeded by Dr. Donald Podoloff [oral history interview]. He compares the temperaments and leadership styles of the two men.
Dr. Leeds then talks about a vision he shares with Raymond Sawaya [oral history interview]: to develop a neuro institute that would bring together all the fields working in neuro and would also feature a dining room to bring back some of the congenial feel of the older MD Anderson.
Dr. Leeds expresses the opinion that MD Anderson is too big, and the size creates obstacles to communication and collaboration. He tells a story about successfully getting money for an MR by talking to the CFO over lunch.
Identifier
LeedsNE_02_20170620_C11
Publication Date
6-20-2017
Publisher
The Making Cancer History® Voices Oral History Collection, The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center
City
Houston, Texas
Interview Session
Topics Covered
The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center - Institutional Change; Leadership; On Leadership; Portraits; Multi-disciplinary Approaches; MD Anderson Culture; MD Anderson History; MD Anderson Snapshot; Growth and/or Change; Critical Perspectives on MD Anderson; Working Environment
Creative Commons License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License.
Disciplines
History of Science, Technology, and Medicine | Oncology | Oral History
Transcript
T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D.:
Now, you mentioned that you thought the leadership at MD Anderson was really critical. So you came in at the end of Charles LeMaistre’s tenure, and then through—
Norman Leeds, MD:
It didn’t... For me, it had no significant impact. The significant impact for me was when Bill Murphy was—left the department. You know, I— T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. How did that change things?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Well, I think Bill built—laid the foundation for a strong department, and I thought he did great work for Doctor... I mean, he did the finance, the tough stuff, and was a great leader. And I felt the loss when he stepped... But, you see, at my level, it didn’t impact me. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Well, it—well, we’re talking, too, about leadership of a department. So what was it that Bill brought to the department that was so key?
Norman Leeds, MD:
He brought in a knowledge base and a brain that functioned at a higher level. He really started the new department, the growth, the building of the department, and he did bring a new life to MD Anderson. And I respected Bill very much. Well, he was very good to me. We got along very well. Our goals were similar, and— T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. How would you describe those goals?
Norman Leeds, MD:
To build and make a better quality of department, to strengthen the department— T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Now, did he—
Norman Leeds, MD:
—to get new equipment. So he was really—he could—he was a seer and a doer. I really respect Bill. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. And did he also share the kind of team focus that—
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yes, I thought so. And he built a strong department, and he encouraged younger people, and he helped us build. And I really miss Bill. We became very good friends, and he was very good to me, so I couldn’t complain. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Now, who replaced him?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Don Podoloff [oral history interview]. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. OK. And how did kind of the focus shift when Dr. Podoloff came in?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Well, Podoloff—Dr. Podoloff is more of a people person. Bill—the problem Bill had was really not a people person. He had a vision, but he was not... Dr. Podoloff was really more of a diplomat, more of getting together, but he really, I don’t think, understood a lot of the complexity. So... T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. So you’re saying there was maybe more of an intellectual kind of focus with Dr. Murphy, and more of a collaborative people focus.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yes. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. OK, that’s interesting.
Norman Leeds, MD:
He knew how to build—Podoloff... That was Bill’s weakness, if anything, was that he was not a people person. But he was good. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. What do you think—I mean, when you and Dr. Murphy were working together, what were you kind of hoping for as a next step, you know, that kind of got cut short when...? You know, where might the department have gone if Dr. Murphy had stayed on?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Oh, I think it would’ve gone further, and the hires would’ve been important, because Bill was really... I admired Bill, because even though he was a musculoskeletal radiologist, he had great comprehension in most of the specialties. He really... And, you know, when he was at a conference, he would ask very excellent questions, you know, if someone was asking a question. He had great perception. And he’s... I think it’s great that he’s here, but—and I understand he’s partially responsible for this project. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yeah, he’s on the Steering Committee, yeah. Yeah.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Well, he’s a wonderful guy, and I... I liked him and his wife, Virginia. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yeah, I’m not asking you to talk out of turn or anything, just, you know...
Norman Leeds, MD:
No, I... By the time Bill... You know, I was getting very senior, so it impacted me, and then it went well. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Now, tell me about—you talked a little bit about your decision to kind of split your time between New York and MD Anderson, and now you’re here full-time, though.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yes. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yes, OK. And what are your next plans?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Well, (laughs) now I’m planning for what my grandchildren are going to do. So no, I’m reaching the end of the road, shall we say, and so my main goal is what I told you, is I’m going to help the new faculty—I mean, young faculty—try to make them better, and leave them with my knowledge, and articles to write, and working with Ray Sawaya to talk about things. And I work with Greg Fuller. So I am working with the neuropathologists. I go to their conference now regularly on Thursday morning. And talking to Ray about neurosurgery. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yeah, what are the big ideas that you and Ray Sawaya are kicking around? Because I bet you two big thinkers are talking about some interesting things.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Well, we’re... Yeah, a neuro institute. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Oh, OK. So tell me about that.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Well, to bring together all the forces in the same building, to be together, to think together, and I think if we’re in the same building and we work together as closely, ideas will percolate. And by putting all of us in proximity, and to bring the sciences, the basic science, the neuroscience, all the activities in one place will stimulate the whole group. And it’s just—we’ve lost that, I think. We used to have that, but it’s gone. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Is that a factor of the growth of the institution?
Norman Leeds, MD:
The growth, and... Well, everybody used to have lunch on the 11th floor, and there was the center table. And even doctor—the president sat at that table, the CFO, you know. And there was a communication. And many faculty sat, and we communicated. We knew each... I mean, I knew the chest surgeons very well, and liked them, and met—you know, talked to people I didn’t know, that I wouldn’t run into on a daily basis. So it was great. And then that disappeared. There’s no single place where people meet anymore, so there’s a lot of diversity, and not communication. So I think if we had that Neuro Institute, and if it had a dining room, like, that we would get to... I don’t know any of the radiologists any... I used to know all the section heads—you know, the musculoskeletal, the chest, the... We don’t know then anymore. You don’t see them. Each group is by—neuro, with its 20 people, doesn’t communicate. Neurosurgeons, you know—it’s... So I think if we were all together and had a place to congregate, they would probably put in, because you don’t know—you have doctors, you have nurses, you have technicians, and scientists. So we think that putting everybody in one place would mean—you know, meetings will be held jointly when new things happen. So there will be an intermingling. Right now that’s missing here. There is not a comingling. I mean, I don’t know most of the people, but—and if I took the—they know less. I at least know many of the people that were here before, but we’re all over the place now. The place is too big. That’s... You know, bigness is not always... It’s like any corporation: it gets so big you lose—OK—you lose this—how shall we say—communication. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Do you think that’s had an impact on the institution as a whole, beyond neuro?
Norman Leeds, MD:
I think it may have a... I said that, that, you know, we used to have that center table, and we all knew what was happening before it happened. I mean, people talked. I knew someone was leaving or coming long before it happened, because people would talk. That’s how we got that CFO who I said, you know, “We need more MRs.” And when I explained it to him he looked me in the eye and he said, “Norm, you’re right. It generates income. I’m going to work on it.” And he did. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. So that was a conversation over lunch.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Over lunch. But they were here. You could talk to people, and communicate. And I think that is missing now. I mean, everybody eats someplace else. You know, you either bring your lunch... There’s no purpose. There’s no group. We used to look forward—it was a social get- together, and to say hello, and you met people from various disciplines. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. I mean, I’ve talked to a number of people who’ve tried to figure out how within their own department to create a sense of community, and it’s a struggle. It’s really a struggle.
Norman Leeds, MD:
It—right now... Well, because you just—you hinted. Think about it: anything that gets too big becomes a pro... The advantage in bigness is having more people. The disadvantage is the communication levels drop. And I think that’s another advan... The Neurological Institute will bring together all disciplines, and bring head and neck, which works with us very well, as well as neurosurgeons, neurologists, oncologists, together, neurooncologists, head and neck oncologists, radiation oncologists, to discuss things and problems more easily. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. So are you kicking around concrete plans to raise funds to create this, or get this...?
Norman Leeds, MD:
No, we’re just talking about... T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Just talking, yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s a wonderful idea. It’s very exciting.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Well, he brought—Ray brought it up to Dr. Mendelsohn about the need, and also to Dr. DePinho. But they have to be responsive. I mean, these things don’t happen in a vacuum, and we’re not important enough... I mean, it really comes—certain things come from the top, and there has to be thinking on how to improve the communications between departments and in departments that is missing. Size is an advantage and a disadvantage, and you have to think about—that would be the first priority would be how to bring people together to realize that together there is strength. Separation is only weakness. So yes, I think a discussion of what can be done, what can’t be done, what’s possible, what could be possible with the proper resources, and how to bring them all together is what is necessary. So it’s building. I believe that’s critical for the institution.
Recommended Citation
Leeds, Norman MD and Rosolowski, Tacey A. PhD, "Chapter 11 : Some Views on Change and a Big Vision for the Future of the Neuro-Services" (2017). Interview Chapters. 1311.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/1311
Conditions Governing Access
Open
