Chapter 12: Reflections on a Marriage and Family
Files
Description
In this chapter, Dr. Leeds shares recollections of his wife, Betty, a woman for whom he had great love and respect. He also talks about his children and grandchildren, sharing advice he gives them.
Identifier
LeedsNE_02_20170620_C12
Publication Date
6-20-2017
Publisher
The Making Cancer History® Voices Oral History Collection, The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center
City
Houston, Texas
Interview Session
Topics Covered
The Interview Subject's Story - Personal Background; Personal Background; Professional Path; Influences from People and Life Experiences; Post Retirement Activities; Professional Values, Ethics, Purpose; Character, Values, Beliefs, Talents
Creative Commons License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License.
Disciplines
History of Science, Technology, and Medicine | Oncology | Oral History
Transcript
T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D.:
Is there anything else you would like to add this morning?
Norman Leeds, MD:
No, I can’t think of anything else to add to this. I’ll be interested to see what you’ve summarized. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Well, I won’t summarize. These are your words, and I will leave them as is, and I will send you a copy of your transcript to have a look, and make sure you’re OK with everything. But no, I don’t—
Norman Leeds, MD:
What do you mean? What...? But... T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Oh, oh, kind of—
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yeah, but you... Yeah, but still, you’re writing things, comm... When I said “summarize,” I mean I’ll see what... That’s fine. I want to see what you say. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yeah. Well, I create materials so that people can find their way around your interview, so that—in that sense I do summarize.
Norman Leeds, MD:
That’s good. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yes, yes, absolutely. So it’ll get read and used.
Norman Leeds, MD:
That’s what I said, huh? T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Norman Leeds, MD:
No, that’s why I was happy to do this. No, I’m—look, I was smart enough to recognize the opportunity when it came, and realize it. And I had to sell it to my wife. And I had to live through... And—but on the other hand, I lived through it. I knew she was good at what she did. She actually came here, and she was a... She was at St. Thomas. She taught at the... Bette was always interested. She got her EdD. You know what an EdD is. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. That’s—no, education... The education PhD.
Norman Leeds, MD:
That’s a doctorate... Yeah, an educational... She just didn’t take a language. Her work was excellent. And she was always interested in reading, and reading development. And she worked—she was a reading teacher in New York City, and she was the one who developed programs for improving reading for people. In fact, the best story about her is she took—she’s constantly—I mean, she had her EDD, but in the New York City school system you get paid, you know, for how much— T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Right, by level.
Norman Leeds, MD:
And so—levels—and she was at too high a level. But she was taking this graduate course at New Rochelle College, and the child she got in this evening course wasn’t reading. So she sat down. She diagnosed the process, because that—she was really a good diagnostician, you know, having had that PhD, and was very good at it, and outstanding. And she figured out a program for him. And the professor cited her for having, you know... When they asked, she said what she had done in the program. The professor was very impressed, because this child who couldn’t read was now reading, and she had developed the program. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Customized for that person, yeah.
Norman Leeds, MD:
And she was—she was really good at what she did. She was one of the few people who could test almost any child. She made them feel comfortable, and, well, she always made me feel comfortable, so I was lucky. So I understood she didn’t want to give it up, and I figured out after a short time that I had the ability to leave early on Friday and... Because I put in ex... She wasn’t here, so during the week I worked—and the week she... We met every other week, because that way it gave me time to build up... And no one—I didn’t recall, but, you know, I put in probably more hours than I took. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. So she taught for a couple semesters or so at St. Thomas, and then went back to New York?
Norman Leeds, MD:
She did, and then went back, and then came—and then when she came back here she did that. And she taught courses on teaching at St. Thomas with the lady who ran the graduate program and then became the dean. You know, first was the professor of remedial reading, and then she ran the school, which Bette taught at. But Bette also taught at St. Thomas a couple of courses, and they made her—I forget what; they gave her a special... And I came to that program to—when she got her award. And Bette was special. I knew that. I knew that from the minute I saw her, or spoke to her. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. What do you think Bette loved about you?
Norman Leeds, MD:
I don’t know, but I know that when I got through my first phone call with Bette... And by the way, that’s why I’m very friendly with my sister, and travel... She introduced me to Bette. She gave me her phone number, because she thought she was pretty, and she was popular. And I called her. When I got through with that phone call—two hours, not knowing her—I said to my mother, “I just spoke to the girl I’m going to marry.” How’s that? And it happened. Then I finally got a date I had to talk myself into, because she was too popular. But I figured that that two hours I must have made an indent. And once we started going out we were immediately almost going steady, and I think we were going steady until the summer, and then I proposed. And she was a junior in college, and I was a senior in medical school. So we went through—she went through the whole thing with me. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yeah, she did. Yeah.
Norman Leeds, MD:
And she was great. We— T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Well, it sounds there—like there was a lot of respect on both sides, and—
Norman Leeds, MD:
We—well, we loved each other, but she had her own mind, which is what I wanted. I didn’t want a... (laughs) I didn’t want a dummy, or someone who followed everything. And I respected her wanting to stay, because she loved being a reading teacher. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. What are your kids’ names?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Frederick, and Frederick is a federal judge, and Patrice G., and she has two kids which are—she’s raising. And she broke a glass ceiling: she became a vice president of a conglomerate that included that company that treats the bugs in... The big company. It was one of the conglomerate, the one... No, you know it. The one that adver—it takes care of termites. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. The Terminex?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Terminex. I think it was one of the companies in her group, until she got married. But believe it or not, both my kids married doctors. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Oh, really? (laughter)
Norman Leeds, MD:
Despite my... My son’s wife is a doctor, and my daughter’s husband is a doctor. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. So how many grandchildren do you have now?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Four grandchildren. Two twins with my son, who speak four languages, because his wife is Bulgarian, so they speak Bulgarian, Russian, they speak Armenian, and I don’t know what the—and English. And they’re the cutest things alive. They’re only—they’re going to be six. And my daughter has two, one of whom is going to be—is really bright. He gave one of the best speeches I have ever heard, sixteen years old, at his confirmation. And the speech was outstanding. We had breakfast, brunch together that morning, and I said, “How’s your speech going, Hagen?” And he said, “I’ve got to finish the ending. I don’t like the ending.” So he got up and gave it, and it was a... Do I remember what...? No, I just remember I was just brought in, and it was just wonderful. He expressed himself beautifully. When he got through I said to him, I said, “Hagen, I’ve been around a long time, and that was one of the best...” He said, “Grandpa, this is something I hope to do in the future.” So he’s very... And, in fact, I thought about bringing him down here for a few—a month, because he’s interested in something... I told him—he’s interested in—what is it? He wants to do—be an oceanographer, and work on speaking to dolphins. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Oh, how cool!
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yes, but I said to him, “Yeah, it’s cool, but it’s...” I said, “Hagen, this is a materialistic world. You have to think about what you can do that you will generate the income to support what you want to do.” So I said, “You may want to think about science, communication.” So he—so I got him thinking, and he said, “You know, maybe I would be a bioengineer.” I said, “That sounds interesting. And I think communication would be helpful.” But I said, “Maybe you ought to come down to MD Anderson for a month, and I’ll talk to Sawaya, after this year, between your junior and your senior years, when you’re better able to make a decision. And if Ray is still around, I will see if... And I already mentioned it to Ray, as I did to him, that— T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. That’d be a great opportunity.
Norman Leeds, MD:
He’s such a... He’s a great kid, and he’s a leader, and he’s an organizer, he’s smart, and he’s very active. But— T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. You’re looking out for the next generation.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yes, and he... No, he’s really... Well, he’s going to a science and math school, and he’s the president as a sophomore of the robotic club— T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Oh, wow. (laughs)
Norman Leeds, MD:
—which he hopes to build. And he’s done some wonderful things. So I’m very proud of him. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Well, is there anything else you would like to add this morning?
Norman Leeds, MD:
No, I’ve given you, I think, above and beyond, (laughter) to give you a full picture. And I agreed with my wife. That’s why I said I traveled back and forth. In some ways it strengthened our relationship. Sometimes a little absence makes the heart grow fonder. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. It can, indeed. It can, indeed.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Huh? T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. It can.
Norman Leeds, MD:
I said, yes. And we, you know, we had a wonderful life together. I still miss her, and that’s the way life is. I mean, I’m grateful for the time I had. So I was lucky. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Well, let me thank you for talking to me this morning.
Norman Leeds, MD:
OK. When can I expect to see what you’re...? T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Well, I’ll send—
Norman Leeds, MD:
I’m not put—I am not... You have a lot to do. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. No, no, I’m... Why don’t we let me kind of tie up the loose end here with the recorder, and then I can tell you what the next phase of the process is, so...
Norman Leeds, MD:
OK. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. So let me just say for the record that I’m turning off the recorder at about five minutes after 11:00.
Recommended Citation
Leeds, Norman MD and Rosolowski, Tacey A. PhD, "Chapter 12: Reflections on a Marriage and Family" (2017). Interview Chapters. 1312.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/1312
Conditions Governing Access
Open
