Chapter 6: Leaving the NCI for Research at MD Anderson
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Description
Dr. Kleinerman begins with stories to demonstrate that she was not taken seriously as a researcher at the NCI. She explains that when Dr. Fidler left the NCI for MD Anderson, he brought her with him. She recalls interactions with Norman Jaffe, MD (Oral History Interview), and notes that she never had to prove herself with him. She also notes that she was the first person to do clinical research in pediatrics.
Dr. Kleinerman next describes the climate for women in the institution when she arrived in 1984.
[The recorder is paused for 2 minutes.]
Dr. Kleinerman notes the absence of women leaders at MD Anderson. She then talks about the benefits of living in Houston. She tells stories to demonstrate the support she had as a working mother and the welcoming attitude of the Jewish community in Houston.
Identifier
KleinermanES_01_20140521_C06
Publication Date
5-21-2014
City
Houston, Texas
Interview Session
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD, Oral History Interview, May 21, 2014
Topics Covered
The Interview Subject's Story - Joining MD Anderson/Coming to TexasProfessional Path Experiences re: Gender, Race, Ethnicity The Researcher Influences from People and Life Experiences Contributions to MD Anderson Portraits On Texas and Texans
Creative Commons License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License.
Disciplines
History of Science, Technology, and Medicine | Oncology | Oral History
Transcript
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
So tell me about that process, and I guess this will be the last question for today because we’re almost coming up on time and I don’t want to make you go over, but I just wanted to quickly hear the story of you coming here. How did that all work? So first, Dr. Fidler came, so how did you—
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
Okay. So he said, “I want you to come with me.” So I told my husband, “You know, if I’m ever going to be able to realize my dream, it ain’t gonna be here, because they’re not interested. They don’t take me seriously.” They didn’t renew my fellowship either. Not only was I a woman, I was a pediatrician. And you could see it when they constructed the call schedule. It was, okay, we alternate patients, but if there’s ever a child, Genie takes the patient, but Genie doesn’t get credit for the patient. She still has to take in a rotation. So he said, “Okay. Let’s see if there’s anything for me.” So it just so happened that Irv Krakoff, who I told you about, was coming here, and so he interviewed with Irv Krakoff, and there was a position for him, so he followed me here. He says, “You know, you followed me to NCI. My turn to follow you here.”
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
So basically that was it. I mean, Dr. Fidler wanted you to come. You kind of came as part of his team.
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
I came, I interviewed, but I wanted to get a joint appointment in pediatrics, so I came down and I met with Norman Jaffe, and he was all welcoming, “Great! Come to clinic. You can come to clinic one day a week, you can see my patients, you can be part of my team. When I’m out of town, you can cover my patients.” Never any question, “What do you know? How many patients have you treated with [unclear]?” Never any question. “When I go out of town, you work with me, you’ll cover my patients.” You know, there was just no question. I didn’t have to prove myself to him. And in figuring out how to do clinical research, nobody was really doing clinical research in pediatrics the way I wanted to do it, so I just sort of had to navigate myself. I went over to Cancer Medicine, because they had a very good—I talked to this person. She said, “Okay, this is what you have to do. You have to write a protocol. It has to go to the IRB.” And, again, I just sort of navigated myself on my own, but people who were willing to stop their day and talk to me and tell me what I had to do, not, you know, “I’m busy. Make an appointment.” I’d show up. They’d, “What do you need?”
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
You’re reiterating the kind of small-town feel that people have described.
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
You got it. Absolutely, it was a small-town feel.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Yeah. It’s very interesting, and probably just a complete breath of fresh air. Any incidents with being a woman here when you first arrived? What was the climate like?
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
Well, you know, with Dr. Fidler, there was no—because, you know, he was married to Dr. Kripke and he promoted her. He put—I mean, he really did. Let’s turn off the recorder.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Okay. I’m pausing the recorder at 3:20. [recorder is paused]
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Okay. We’re back on at 3:30.
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
So in terms of women, Dr. Freireich was difficult to deal with, and a lot of the Cancer Medicine physicians, and I think it was more that I was a pediatrician than I was a woman, but nothing sticks with me as I couldn’t do anything. There were no really women department chairmen or leaders, I don’t think, certainly no head of clinical divisions, because I’m the first one. So I think there was an absence there, but I don’t believe that I ever felt restricted because I was a woman.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And just for the record, you came to MD Anderson in 1984.
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
Correct.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Yeah, it sounds like it was sort of a whole arena of new opportunities over there.
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
Oh, it was wonderful. I mean, Leonard and I say it was the best decision we’ve ever made. Next to marrying each other, it was the best decision, the best decision. (Rosolowski laughs.) And our friends could not understand it. They could not. “You want to go to Houston? Why do you want to go?” And it was a wonderful place to raise a family. I’ll just tell you one last story.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Sure.
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
You know, it was very difficult in Washington to be a working mother, very difficult. You would think why? There are all these attorneys. But there really was a segregation. You were a working mother or you were a stay-at-home mother, if you’re a working mother, you’re not in our group. I couldn’t get anybody to carpool with me. Women wouldn’t talk to me when I went to birthday parties. I remember one birthday party, I was so upset, I was in the corner. I was close to crying, and one of the fathers brought me a cup of coffee because he felt sorry for me.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Wow.
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
So when we moved here, I said to my husband, “Okay, I’m getting in a carpool, and I’m not going to tell them that I work.” Because we lived close, so I could come home at noon. I mean, the attitude was, “You work, it’s your problem. You can’t come home at noon to pick up the carpool? Forget it. We’re not interested.” Okay. So I said, “I’m not telling anybody.” So I got into a carpool based on our zip code. And one of the mothers who lived around the corner said, “I want to get all the kids together so they know each other.” Okay. So we went over to their house, we’re talking, very nice. None of the other women worked. And Richard, who’s my oldest, said something about, “Well, Mom, when you go to work,” and I was like, “Richard!” I go, “It’s okay. It’s all right. I’ll leave work. There’s no problem. I’ve already worked it out.” And one of the other mothers said to me, “Honey, I got three kids. It’s all I can do to get myself out of the house in the morning. If you want to drive two mornings, I’d be happy to pick up at noon twice.” I thought, “Oh, my god, I’ve gone to heaven.”
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Wow.
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
And that was the attitude. “We will help you. You want to pick up carpool, soccer carpool at the end of the day? You pick up the soccer. There’s a no-school day, your child can come to play with my child.” It was a welcoming, again, collegial, collaborative, supportive community like I had not experienced.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Right. Right. Kind of an extended family sort of situation.
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, we’re Jewish. In the nine years I was in Washington, I never was invited to anybody’s house for Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Passover. We moved here in July. Rosh Hashanah was in September; I think we had four or five invitations. “You’re new, you’re Jewish. Come over. Come to Shabbat dinner. Come for Rosh Hashanah.” It’s the South. So, you know, again, one of the best things that we did was to move here. We love it here.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
That’s great.
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
Which is why it’s so hard when you see something that you love so dearly begin to change, and I know change is necessary and all of that, but you sort of do mourn the loss.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Yeah, I can see that.
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
It’s a loss.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Yeah. Well, we’re a little past three-thirty, and I don’t want to abuse your time today, so why don’t we—this feels like a good place to stop.
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
Mm-hmm. All right.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
So I am turning off the recorder at 3:35, and I want to thank you for your time, Dr. Kleinerman.
Eugenie Kleinerman, MD:
My pleasure. Thank you for listening. (laughs)
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Oh, it’s my pleasure. Thanks. (End of Audio Session One)
Recommended Citation
Kleinerman, Eugenie S. MD and Rosolowski, Tacey A. PhD, "Chapter 6: Leaving the NCI for Research at MD Anderson" (2014). Interview Chapters. 1402.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/1402
Conditions Governing Access
Open
