Chapter 10: Professional and Personal Values and Changes in Institution Culture
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Dr. Ecung begins this chapter with some brief comments about mentoring: she notes that “I am a product of mentoring” and talks about her own strategies of mentoring. She tells an anecdote about mentoring staffmembers who are already fairly highly placed but looking to rise higher in the institution. She notes that by virtue of her mentoring, she began to serve as “the doorway” to the Physician in Chief’s office. She explains that honest and integrity are key concepts in her personal and professional philosophy and these values served as motives for her decision to retire.
Next Dr. Ecung offers her observations on changes that she has seen in MD Anderson’s culture over the past five years, noting that the institution does not feel “as wholesome” as it did during her years of service and that the place is “reshaping” in ways that do not match who she is. As an example, she explains that for 37 of her 39 years at the institution she never felt that she was looked at as black, but now feels invisible in meeting with the president [Dr. Ronald DePinho; oral history interview]. She also explains that she has observed Dr. DePinho’s wife, Dr. Lynda Chin, behave in ways that were damaging to moral.
She notes that in the past, she observed situations arise where the faculty might not like an institutional policy or decision, but nevertheless supported the president. Today, she explains, the faculty does not feel heard and this support is not as strongly expressed.
She also notes changes in the Physician in Chief’s office. The atmosphere was very close and trusting in the past, but now sees a kind of class system in place.
Identifier
EcungWB_C10
Publication Date
11-3-2016
City
Houston, Texas
Interview Session
Wenonah Ecung, PhD, Oral History Interview, November 03, 2016
Topics Covered
The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center - Institutional Change; MD Anderson Culture; Leadership; On Leadership; Mentoring; Evolution of Career; Growth and/or Change; Professional Values, Ethics, Purpose; Ethics; Institutional Politics; Controversy; Gender, Race, Ethnicity, Religion; Women and Minorities at Work
Transcript
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
So Barbara inadvertently becameCecil was probably my first mentor. Barbara was definitely one of my mentors at MD Anderson.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
So that was in '03?
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
No, that was in '90no, that was inyeah, '03. November, '03. Yes. Yes.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
November of '03. Yeah. Wow.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
When you said '03, I was thinking '93. But no, '03.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Oh, okay. Yeah. Wow. Well, that's a great story.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Yeah. Yeah.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
I know, I mean, I do want to talk about that particular role. But I didn't want to lose the thread that was sort of a sub-story about the mentoring. Did you end up doing a program on mentoring?
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
We ended up making the recommendation, but nothing really ever came of it.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Okay. That's too bad. Yeah. Yeah.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
We completed our task for that leadership course, but nothing came of it.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
All right. Okay. What's your view on that?
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Specifically?
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
In terms of why at the time was mentoring an important subject of conversation? And what is the need for it in your mind?
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Yeah. Well, at that time, we were specifically focused on faculty. And the reason we were focused on faculty is, you know the surveys that are done, usually every three years?
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Was it the BIG survey?
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
The BIG survey. The employee opinion survey.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Yep.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
I don't know if we were calling it the EOS at the time, but they had just completed a survey. And that showed up as an area that was extremely deficient for faculty. So that's why there was a lot of discussion around that. What do I think of mentoring? I'm a product of mentoring. So not only am I a product of mentoring and successful mentoring, I've tried to make it a point throughout my career to make myself available to those that are interested in being mentored. So I've usually had two to three folks that I have committed time to. But it's beenit's been a relationship contingent upon, I have deliverables to you, but you also have deliverables to me. Because I don't enter into mentoring relationships that aren't serious. Yeah.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
So give me a sense of what that would look like.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Well, I had one young guy, gentleman, young man, who asked me to take him on and be his mentor. I shared with him before that I'd like to meet with him. I didn't know this person at all; they had been informed that I might be a good person for them to see out. When I met with him, I remember sitting back, saying, "One thing that's important for me as anyone's mentor is to be able to be completely honest with the individual." And I said, "Sometimes honesty is painful. Are you willing to enter into such a relationship with me to where I can be candid with you?" I said, "Because if I can't, then I can't help you." He agreed to that. And so I said, "Immediately I'm going to share with you what I have experienced the past 45 minutes, in just listening to you." And I said, "You carry a big chip on your shoulder. You carry a victim sign that, really, you've created." And I said, "Remember, I said communicating what I'm saying isn't always nice, sometimes it's harsh, and sometimes it's painful. This is one of these times." So that wasit accomplished what I was trying to accomplish, which was shock him. And
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
How did he react?
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
He went back, like that.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Wow.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
So I knew what I wanted to do had been initially effective. We ended it there for him to go away and think about, and he came back . I only met with him once a month, he came back, sharing his appreciation. And it really had opened the door to him now receiving and beginning to work onI remember during that first meeting, he was havinghe had taken on a new role. So he had new co-workers, he was workingthis guy I was mentoring was in his late 30s, early 40s, and I'm guessing that. But his coworker that he had been working with and sorely complaining about and feeling victimized by was an older gentlemen who had worked for the Houston Chronicle, was probably late sixties to early seventies. But the guy I was mentoring totally discounted what this older gentleman was bringing to the table. So I think I was successful in helping him see how he was discounting this gentleman. They later developed a good relationship, and I think it was because of that mentoring. Now, I've also had people come that wantthey say they want mentoring, but what they're really wanting is a spotter for maybe a higher-level position that's paying more money. It's not true mentoring. And I'm not necessarily interestedespecially when they are people making already six figures, and you get that they're not really wanting more responsibility, just really wanting more money. So I've said no to people, too. Yeah. But there's kind of like an initiation interview, if you will--
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Sure.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
To where we're deciding on each other. You may think I'm the person you want, but I might not really be the person you want. Yeah.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Interesting. So these are individuals that would be in basically leadership positions, and pretty advanced in their career already?
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Some. Not all, though. Not all. I worked with one young lady who actually, I was in my Associate VP role, and my Administrative Director, one of the girls that reported to me, had been in conversation with this other individual who was struggling with her boss, who was a VP. So she did report directly to the VP. And my Administrative Director suggested she seek me out. And I worked with her. She felt undervalued, she felt that she would take on the duties he would ask, but he was very much a micromanager, so she felt there was very little trust, and always a tremendous amount of direction, and very little support. And she carried it out to the troops. And the troops didn't like that he wasn't being supportive. And she felt she couldn'tthat was the core of what was going on for her. So working with her for probably a year, I was able to help her find her voice with him in a way that didn't offend him. I also happened to know him pretty well, so I think I was able to provide her with some insightful advice and how to approach. And she's still working for him today. And it's a much better relationship. It's an honest relationship. She's able to call him on things when it's happening for her. And she better appreciates that parts of him are just not going to change. But she was able to point out when it's happening.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Now, we've talked a lot about team building and putting people together, but this is the first timeand this isn't a criticism, it's just the way the conversation's gonethe first time that you've kind of talked about this issue of honesty and transparency in a process. I mean, is that something that you also discuss with teams when you're putting them together? I'm just curious how the mentoring and team building may overlap in certain ways. Because this seems to be a kind of philosophy that you have about relationships.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
It is. And integrity. And I think it's one of the thingsyou ask, did I mentor others in really high positions. Everybody that worked in the Physician In Chief officeand Barbara would tell you thisI became the doorway for last-minute mentoring direction on, here's what I'm thinking about doing. I'm thinking about approachingand it could be the Physician In Chiefwhat would you suggest? Do you think I'm headed in the right direction? And when I was leaving to retire, that was one of the things that the VPs in the office would come to me and share how much they had enjoyed working with me. And that part was nice, but it would always end up getting to their need for, what am I going to do? Who am I going to go to? Who am I going to ask when you're not here? And it was one of the things that always showed up in my evaluations, the honesty and integrity in the process. So how did that translate to teams? I think they knew who I was. The person they were getting was consistent. I gave them the story as I had it. If it changed, they were aware as soon as I was aware. So I think there's always been that trust around the folks that I've been with.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Sort of a style of communication that isn't really a style, because it's very authentic, you know what I'm saying? And it sounds like there's real alignment between your values and integrity, leadership, communicationI mean, there's justthey all kind of line up and participate in the same basic values. Yeah, I could see why that would be a recipe for a lot of confidence. It's like the person doesn't change faces in different people, among different people.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
No. This person didn't.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Yeah. And some people do. They become different people in different situations. Yeah. Very interesting. Is that something that you felt or formed? How didis it part of who you are? Is it something you had to discover?
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
No, I thinkI really thinkI know it's a part of who I am. I also believeand this may surprise you a little, and so my intent is not to shock youit's probably what helped me know it was time for me to retire, or I was ready to retire.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
How's that?
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
In thatthis is the part I'm not sure I'm supposed to say.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
We can turn off the recorder, if you like. We can leave it on, and you can make a decision later about whether or not you leave it in.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Okay. I just saw my world at MD Anderson becoming, moving away fromit didn't feelit wasn't feeling as wholesome as it had, as what I had grown up in. You have to remember, I was 20, 21 when I started MD Anderson. So I grew up there. I grew up with the faculty. And towardswhat helped me understand that, just as I would tell people when I would move in, this may not be the place for you. And that's not a bad thing. And I think that's where I got to at the end. I came to realize the place is reshaping. And I'm purposely not using the world "evolving," but it's reshaping. And it's okay. Organizations grow and mature, and they have to reshape. They have to change in order to continually survive. But it might be changing in a way that is in conflict with who I am.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
What were some of the signs that you were seeing that that was happening?
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
I was hoping you wouldn't ask that.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
You can not answer.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
This part we may end up taking out.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Sure.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
But just like I painted for you who, for me, Mickey LeMaistre was, which was opening, warm, embracing of others, John Mendelsohn was the same way. I remember there was a timeand I don't know who told himbut Ramon is my second marriage. So I was going through a divorce. And Dr. Mendelsohn had a Christmas party at his house, as he always did. And when I got there, he was, as Dr. LeMaistre always was, warm and embracing. And there was a point where he says, "I don't know what's wrong with anybody out there that doesn't understand that they'd be lucky to have you." I mean, justso that's what I had been used to. Folks that are approachable, that are open to others. I never, ever in myI was there 39 years, and 37 of the 39 years I never forgot I was black, but I never felt I wore that on my sleeve. And [I never felt] that's how people were looking at me. My last two years, I was ever aware of the fact that I was a black person. And I felt somewhat diminished in certain circles as a result of that. Not from the people that were immediately around me, but from the president. I feltand I shared this with Dr. Buchholz, because I wasI felt he supported me. And I actually went from Associate Vice President to Vice President under Dr. Buchholz' reign. So I always felt he supported me. But as I told him, when we'd be in the meetings with the president, I felt invisible. And I had never in all my years there felt invisible. So I don't know how we got on that.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Well, talking about how the institution began to feel very different from
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Right. So that was
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
And I was actuallythe issue of diversity, and the fact of you being a black woman in the institution, I was certainly going to ask you about that. So we're starting to address that issue as well.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Yeah. So it was with the change. (clears throat) Excuse me. That wasn't emotional, that was just choking. (laughter) So it was with the entry of our new president that I think the institution shifted and began to change. When I said it was in conflict with who I am as a person, I saw his wife doing things and saying things that I had never, ever experienced at MD Anderson in my career, things that were demeaning, and things that I firmly believe, had I even ventured down that road, I would have rightfully been dismissed from the institution. I saw less valuing of people. I witnessed comments of Anderson was now made up of nothing but B people. And we need A people here, which diminishes everyone around you. And I saw the looks on faces as comments like that were made. So over the last two to three years, I justit just wasn'tand that's not a bad thing, it just wasn't the MD Anderson I had come to know. But again, that does not make it a bad thing. It just means it wasI was at a point where I needed to make a decision.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Are thereso you've mentioned these specific instances that were concerning to you. Are there some ways in which the shift in administration in 2011 has kind of changed the culture, so it filters down? Have you seen changes in patient care amongst faculty? What's your read on the impact in the general institution?
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Before I left, I think facultyeven, so putting it in perspective, there was a pointwell, let me just sayI don't need to point that out. Let me just say, faculty were alwaysadministration wasa part of being there is making hard decisions. And what I had always witnessed is, there were hard decisions made, and faculty were still supportive. They didn't like it, and you'd hear the vibrations loud and clear. But they would come on board and support it. They were always supportive of the president, even when Dr. Mendelsohn was going through the concerns related to Erbitux. They were still supportive of him. They believed in him. The integrity was there. But it began to change to where, I think, faculty no longer felt heard. Things that we had tried in the past that clearly didn't workand this may be because we had a very stable faculty, people stay at Anderson a long time. But it's kind of like when you've been there, and you know you've tried this and it doesn't work, why are we going to try this again? We've kind of moved beyond that. So the credibility that had been there with the faculty, I think, decreased. I wasn't right there with the patient any longer, but I had people sharing with me that MD Anderson has changed, and it's not for the better. I get a lot of that now, it saddens me, especially because I really feel I can't do anything about it. And don't get me wrong, it's not because I'm not there. I don't think if I were there, things would beI don't think I'm the center of what makes things great. Okay.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
No, but you have a very valuable and reasoned perspective. I mean, you saw the institution over many years, were part of building what it is, and part of the process of it takingbecoming something different under a new administration.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Yeah. So it does sadden me when people share that with me.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Of course. Of course.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
And then I think the other thing that changed for me was that office, the Physician In Chief office, from the time I entered, has always been a very close office. Clearly one where we would speak up and challenge each other, but clearly one when you walked out, you were supportive of each other, and you could trust what one had said. People kind of showed up as who they were. [ ] It sort of became almost like a class system. The secretarial support would voice to me, they don'twhy doesn't [Dr. Buchholz] come by and speak? [Dr. Burkek] used to always speak to everybody. We were a team. We were a family. And it's just how people operate differently. Some folks aren't comfortable. But people throughout the office were beginning to feel this change that was taking place. And then I had the senior VP saying things to me, and when I would ask, "Have you had that discussion with Dr. Buchholz?" And I would be told yes, and I didn't believe it, and I'd share with Buchholz, "Well, this was brought up to me, and I'm surprised that you hadn't discussed it with me." And it hadn't been discussed with me because he hadn't discussed it withso those things were, likeit's too much in conflict with who I am. I can'tit's not "deal with," but I don't know how to function. I don't know how to move in this.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Right. Yeah. I can understand, I mean, from the things that you said about transparency, honesty. I just could see where you would feel very disoriented in a place like that. Yeah.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Yeah. So, and I've shared with my husband, no one would have ever thought, anyone in my family, no one at work, that I would have adjusted so well to retirement. But I think that's why. Because it had becomeI was kind of like an antibody in a foreign place. So
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Time to say goodbye.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Mm-hmm. But that's not bad. Yeah.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
No. And I think it could be a much less healthy reaction would be to stay in a situation that isn't comfortable, isn't aligned with your own values, and just beat your head against the wall, and get angry and stressed and have more back pain.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Right. Right, right. Right. Right.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
And, yeah, so it's unfortunate
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
But it took me a while to understand what was happening, the internal conflict. It wasn't immediate. Yeah.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Well, I began interviewing for the project in the summer of 2011, so before the official change of administrations. And I interviewed through kind of the honeymoon period, and then into the period where, suddenly, people were, like, oh my gosh, something's happening here we hadn't expected. I've certainly seen the effects of the change, even if I don't among the circles where people are talking about that every day.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Right.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Registered that there are some people who are very upset, feelingyou are not the first person who said that the institution is becoming a very different place, by no means. So how people deal with that, they deal with it in different ways.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Right. Right.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Right. We've got about ten minutes left, or do you want to stop for today? Or do you want to take a few more moments, if you're kind ofyour choice. We obviously will need to have
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
A third session.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
a third session, if that's okay with you.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
Yes, so we could stop. Yeah, yeah.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
Okay. All right, well, why don't
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
I thought sure we'd finish in two sessions.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
I knew we wouldn't, actually.
Wenonah Ecung, PhD:
I was gonna be the one! (laughter)
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD :
All right, well, just for the record, I am turning off the recorder at about 22 minutes after two.
Recommended Citation
Ecung, Wenonah B. PhD and Rosolowski, Tacey A. PhD, "Chapter 10: Professional and Personal Values and Changes in Institution Culture" (2016). Interview Chapters. 698.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/698
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