Chapter 07: Translational Research at MD Anderson
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Description
Dr. Fidler explains that changes at NCI had threatened to limit his research freedom and motivated his move in 1983 to MD Anderson, where collaboration with clinicians was fostered: his main goal at that time was to understand metastasis at a clinical level. He speaks about his work training clinicians, many of whom now work at MD Anderson. In the final fifteen minutes of the session, Dr. Fidler tells an amusing anecdote about how he came to occupy the R.E. “Bob” Smith Distinguished Chair in Cell Biology (as his wife, Margaret Kripke was simultaneously offered the Vivian Smith Distinguished Chair in Cell Biology). He describes his relationships training Japanese and Korean clinicians, and notes that the work at MD Anderson he is most proud of is training the next generation. He closes with an anecdote about his most significant award, though he also quotes words attributed to King Solomon: “Don’t do things for the sake of an award.”
Identifier
FidlerIJ_02_20110927_C07
Publication Date
9-27-2011
City
Houston, Texas
Interview Session
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD, Oral History Interview, September 27, 2011
Topics Covered
The Interview Subject's Story - The ResearcherJoining MD Anderson Professional Path Contributions to MD Anderson MD Anderson History The Researcher Multi-disciplinary Approaches Career and Accomplishments Service Beyond MD Anderson Beyond the Institution Personal Background
Transcript
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
OK. OK. We’re going to shift gears just a little bit and go back in time. I wanted to ask you how you came to join MD Anderson. Why you left the NCI institute in Frederick.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Dr. Frederick Becker who was the vice president for research at the time approached both Margaret and I with the opportunity to move to MD Anderson. I was to head a department called cell biology, which then the name would change to cancer biology. And Margaret the department of tumor immunology. With NCI there was a shift in the director of the NCI. And with that shift our ideal condition in Frederick, which was do the best research you can, began -- they called me in, and they were going to tell me what area I should focus on. And I indicated that that is unacceptable, because when I was recruited from University of Pennsylvania one thing that was ironclad guarantee was that I could write my own grant. In other words if I wanted -- as long as I’m funded for decent project, if I want to work on metastasis, it’s metastasis, and not work on tomatoes and cucumbers. And there began to be a shift that said at NCI that the people in Frederick ought to do projects rather than research. So the offer of Dr. Becker came at just the right time. In fact we negotiated one weekend and that was it.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
This was in 1993.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Right.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
OK. And what did MD Anderson want to achieve by bringing you here and also Dr. Kripke? What was the reasoning?
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Well, they wanted to increase basic research. At the time there were only three departments doing basic research. And now they would have five departments. And research that were not especially -- both metastasis and tumor immunology was to increase the research at MD Anderson.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
What made you take his offer? Why did you? I mean I understand why you left NCI. But why did you decide to come here? What did it offer?
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Because I wanted to work in an institute where I could directly talk to the clinical individual. Especially the surgeons and pathologists. Remember, I was a surgeon before I received a degree in pathology. And there were several surgeons here that I knew personally. I knew some pathologists. And I was assured that collaboration is a key factor in survival at MD Anderson. I like that a lot.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
So what were your goals when you first started? And how did some of those collaborations take shape?
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
My goal was to understand metastasis more on the clinical level than on the mouse or tissue culture level. How the goal became actual is that I began to work with some of our surgeons. I had a joint appointment in department of urology until last year. And the chair of urology was a new chair by the name of Andrew von Eschenbach. And Andy actually even came to Frederick to make sure that he and I could work together. He sent fellows immediately, fellows to my laboratory, to learn animal models. And we began to work on kidney cancer and prostate cancer almost within a month after I arrived. I also worked with Dr. Jessup J-E-S-S-U-P, Kim Jessup, on colon cancer. These are individual that I knew from national and international meetings and visitors to Frederick. They came to Frederick. We knew them, they knew us.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
So how did the clinical collaboration work out? Maybe you could just explain how what you were doing had an effect on how --
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Well, I trained -- many many clinicians who are at MD Anderson now in fact trained in my laboratory. And hopefully -- right now I mentioned Lee Ellis. Colin Dinney, who is the chair of urology, trained with me. I have 130 of those, I don’t want to start naming. But hopefully when they look, when they wrote grant, when they looked at their own clinical research, the principle that they gained were the shining light to proceed. I mean they spent two to three years with me, I hope they learned something. And they did.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
So there’s a kind of synergy between the lab experience and then the clinical experience.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Absolutely. Because I was very interested in -- I always considered myself to be a translational researcher. I’m not one who works on a single molecular pathway in tissue culture. If you find it, you do it in an animal, then you move on, you move on, spontaneous tumor. You go to the clinic. Developmental therapeutics, etc. Which were very strong here. I wanted to learn from them, and I did.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Can you tell me when -- could you tell me a bit about the history of the metastasis research laboratory? When did it start? And how did it --
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
It started with my coming to MD Anderson.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And you founded it right away.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Yeah.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
It was your working space.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
It’s my work.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And how is --
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
My work is on metastasis.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Yeah, yeah. And so how did it grow and evolve?
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Well, it started with a single laboratory. And then it became -- oh probably ten, 15 years ago we were the first center in MD Anderson was metastasis center. But we didn’t receive support, financial support from MD Anderson. It was all take care of yourself. Remember what my grandmother told me. “You want a helping hand, you do it yourself.” We had seminar series. We had grants. People joined it if they were interested. Many, most of the members or many were clinicians. Because that’s what they encounter every day in the clinic.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
When did it change? When did it become a part of MD Anderson that was actually supported by the institution?
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Mostly when Dr. Ellis took over.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
OK. And why did that change happen under him?
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Because Dr. DuBois, there was a new type of administration with Dr. DuBois, Dr. Mendelsohn. Maybe -- no. Actually I received funding for two years before. The last two years we received funding from MD Anderson. But the help came in multiple different ways. I was allowed to fundraise. When Margaret and I first arrived, this building is called the R. E. Bob Smith Building. And we met with Mrs. Smith because Mr. Smith who was the owner of the Astros by the way died many years previously. And we met with her several times. And there’s a cute story about that, that finally I said, “You know that it would be very nice if you could do something for MD Anderson.” And she said, “What is that?” I said, “Well, one thing, you can donate a chair.” And she said, “Well, OK, we can give the Bob Smith Chair.” I said, “No. That’s not good enough. I want a chair named after you.” “I cannot do that.” “Why not? Why not, Vivian?” Said, “It’s not appropriate to have a chair called the Vivian Smith Chair. Has to be R. E. Bob.” I said, “Well, in that case you can donate two chairs, one to me and one to Margaret.” About a week later Dr. LeMaistre had a letter. “Dear Dr. LeMaistre, enclosed is a check. I want you to buy a love sofa for Josh and Margaret.” True story. “But if a love sofa is not appropriate, buy them two chairs.” It’s true story. So I had the Distinguished Bob Smith and Margaret had the Distinguished Vivian Smith. Then we prevented both of us to the foundation. We presented work year in and year out. For the last God knows how many, I don’t know, 28, 29 years, I had money from the Smith Foundation. But that money has been dedicated to graduate studies. It pays the tuition of students who are in the -- ten student in immunology and ten student in the metastasis area. We had that. We had other donors’ money. I was allowed to at the time with Dr. LeMaistre, I could go bang on doors, OK? They took me to give lecture, things like that. It did change in the last few years with the administration. Didn’t want people to ask for individual donor money. Everything had to go to MD Anderson. And that’s when our location, two centers, became a reality. By then they had 20, 30 centers. Before as I said there was one. I started the center concept.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
What are the pros and cons of that in your mind? That change in structure.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
OK, I’m not going to comment on that. I told you that’s just not -- it’s irrelevant. I’m no longer the director of the center. I’m no longer a chairman. I’m very happy with where I am. I can do what I want. Besides, we have a new president, and we’ll see what he does.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
I wanted to ask you -- let me just see here.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
I need to ask you a question. The only thing you didn’t ask me, the size of my shoes. Why is it so detailed, for God’s sake? I mean how many people are you interviewing?
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Right now the list is 33, and there --
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
33, everybody four hours, who’s ever going to listen to that?
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Well, here, let me -- well, I guess I’ll leave this on record. It’s part of an ongoing oral history project that’s being run by the Historical Resources Center. And like a lot of oral history projects, there’s a sense that there’s a mission. Who’s going to be listening to this? There’ll be scholars. There’ll be in-house people. And there’ll be the public. So there’s a desire to collect information in a whole variety of areas to serve different kinds of audience needs.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Well, I provided you I think more stimulating stories as to centers and things like that. Let it be. I mean ask the boring people those kind of questions. If they don’t have good stories to tell, let them answer these kind of questions. For me, I’m not interested in that.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Well, I wanted to ask you though about some of the teaching and training. I notice some interesting connections that you have with other institutions. You got an award from the Japanese Association for Metastasis Research. And I know that you had a research center named after you in Shanghai and I was --
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
I don’t know about this research center in Shanghai. They sent me a letter. They asked me whether I will agree. And I said sure, you know. And whether they named it or not I have no idea.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
So but what of the Japanese association?
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
The Japanese is real and the Korean is real. I have trained a very large number of Japanese scientists and some of them have risen in their own universities to dean and president, department chair. So my relationship with Japan is absolutely correct. George Poste and I, he’s from England, I’m from Israel, were sent by the NCI as the first representatives to Japan to start connection. I thought it was a riot. Very funny that an Israeli and an Englishman are representing America. But that’s the land of opportunity, isn’t it? I have no very strong relationship also training fellows, scientists, physicians, clinicians from Korea. And of course I’ve trained people from China. And several from European and many many Americans. Yes, there are two foreigners who are members of this society, that’s Bruce Chabner and myself.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
How did that start?
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Well, the president of the society, the late president of the society, trained with both of us. And he pushed for it, they will accept foreigners, and he is the president. It worked. And again I was the very first foreigner to keynote the Japan Cancer Meeting many years ago. 1991. I remember because I was on crutches and my daughter took me to Japan. Again it’s because I trained Japanese scientists. I enjoy Japanese culture. I think they’re great. I learned a lot from them. And as the man who invited me to keynote said, it shows. You treat us with -- he said, “You treat us with respect.” OK? Which means it shows. In English we’ll say, “It shows.”
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
I was wondering if your experience coming to another country and adjusting to that --
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Oh sure.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
-- had an influence on your ability to interact.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Oh sure, of course. Of course. I have great understanding and sympathy for people who arrive here and are lost. And what’s important.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Like having that experience, that intercultural experience, can help you in another intercultural context.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Let me ask you a question. Ask me a question when you stop recording. I’ll tell you the advice I give everyone who doesn’t know the language.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
OK. What do you feel are -- maybe you’ve implied the answer to this question in some that you’ve already said about the host environment. But what do you feel needs to be done next in the field?
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
We need to understand the pathways by which tumor cells interact with the environment, by which the environment influence tumor cells. And identify pathways that are perhaps unique to interaction of tumor with the environment, not normal cell with the environment, and interfere with that. Because that would be a nice way to get rid of tumor cells. We’re very lucky in the brain that we can interfere with the way astrocytes interact with tumor cells. But I have big news for you. That’s -- we’re interfering also with how they interact with the neurons. The difference is that neurons don’t divide. And tumor cells do divide. So if we give an antidividing agent like temozolomide, a drug, you cannot kill cells that don’t divide, only cells that divide. And only cells that divide are tumor cells. So whether the neurons express, don’t express resistance molecule, at this stage it’s not critical. It could be that in clinical trial that would take two, three years it will become critical. But as I said, if you’re a mouse I know what to do.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Let me just ask you a couple other questions, because I know that we’re running out of time here. Of all of the work that you’ve done at this institution, what are you most proud of?
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Well, influencing the next generation.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And what work do you hope they will carry on?
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Logic. As we say, don’t look for the drug under the lamppost. You know what I’m talking about? Remember this gum that used to have cartoons?
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Bazooka.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
The Bazooka. Somebody showed me a Bazooka cartoon. A man standing under a lamppost. And his friend says, “What are you looking for?” “My wallet.” “Where did you lose it?” He said, “Down the road.” “Why are you looking here?” “Because here there is light.” So I don’t want them to look under the light. I want them to follow logic, think about it, make a hypothesis and test it. And if you don’t succeed, make another hypothesis. Not the end of the world.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Don’t be afraid of failure.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
But if you are afraid of failure you’ll never have success. And remember Grandma [Stern, Rebecca Stern]. “If you’re looking for a helping hand you’ll find it at the end of your arm.” Don’t expect the world to give you the solution to problem. Go find them for yourself. And share. Be ready to share. Don’t be selfish. If you found something that is good, share it with other collaborator.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
You’ve been given a lot of honors and awards. Some of them you have mentioned. Some of them are the Charles LeMaistre Outstanding Achievement Award in Cancer, the Lifetime Achievement Award from Nature Publishing. You have had a lectureship named after you, the Isaiah J. Fidler Lectureship in Cancer Metastasis Research. The American Cancer Society Distinguished Service Award. Any number of others. Is there one of those or maybe one that I haven’t mentioned that means more to you than others? And why would that be?
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
The last one you get is the one that means something. No, I really -- it’s very nice to get awards, and it’s very -- I would be a hypocrite if I said that they don’t mean anything. Of course they do. But I also believe in what King Solomon said. “Don’t do things for the sake of an award. Do things for the sake of doing things.” I told you my story that nobody knows who Luria and Delbruck are, and they got the best, they got the Nobel. Nobody knows who they are. And believe me, when they go to buy a hamburger, they pay just as much as you and I. There’s one, however, that I must say that was very important to me. And that’s when I got a prize from the president of Israel. It’s hanging on the wall. And my mother was in the audience. Because when I received the award I said that I want to thank somebody who always told me that I didn’t know what I was doing. “Mother, please stand up.” And she did, and she waved to the crowd. And she was so proud.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
That’s wonderful. I’m trying to find -- I have that on my list somewhere. What was the name of that award? The E. G. Rosenblatt Award for Scientific Achievement?
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
No.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Ah, yes.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Just the president of Israel award. Appreciation, gratitude for your contribution to fight against cancer worldwide, 2002. From the Israel Cancer Association.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Israel Cancer Association.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
It’s not -- some awards give you money, and some give you this, and some give you that. This one gave me my mother in the audience. She wasn’t in any other award. And here she was. When I asked her to stand up, that was it.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Is there anything else that you’d like to add?
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
No. I’m happy that we have spent three hours yakking or four hours or whatever. And I hope I gave you enough material. And I hope that you’ll edit it. Because a lot of it is repetitive.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
I think it was a -- I really enjoyed talking to you. And I was --
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
Thank you.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
-- very interested too. Thank you very much for spending the time.
Isaiah J Fidler, DVM, PhD:
You’re welcome. OK.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
I’m turning off the recorder at about 3:30. END OF FILE
Recommended Citation
Fidler, Isaiah J. DVM, PhD and Rosolowski, Tacey A. PhD, "Chapter 07: Translational Research at MD Anderson" (2011). Interview Chapters. 823.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/823
Conditions Governing Access
Open
