Chapter 05: Gender Issues at MD Anderson and the Creation of Advocacy and Equity Services for Women A: The Administrator

Authors

Elizabeth L. Travis PhD, The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center
Tacey A. Rosolowski PhD, The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center

Files

Description

Dr. Travis explains how a movement to address women’s issues began in the eighties. The University of Texas System had convened a Commission on Women and Minorities. She also notes that Dr. Margaret Kripke, a major player in these events, came to MD Anderson in 1983. Dr. Kripke put together a small, ad hoc group to work on the status of women at MD Anderson. Included were: Elizabeth Travis, Lillian Fuller, and Judy Watson (Dr. Charles LeMaistre’s “right hand”). They conducted a study (1984) and found inequities: unequal pay for women; women took longer to be promoted, women were not serving on committees or as department chairs or in high-profile positions. Dr. Kripke took the data to Dr. LeMaistre and the Vice President of Research, Dr. Frederick Becker. She notes that women themselves were generally not aware of the inequities prior to the report. Next, the ad hoc group started the Women Faculty Organization to work for access to opportunities for women. She explains why it was important that senior women comprised the core groups. She also reflects on how the activities of the group were received.

Dr. Travis next talks about the rationale for putting together the book, Legends and Legacies, one of the first projects of the Office of Women Faculty Programs.

Dr. Travis tells a story about a table in the dining room of the Clark Clinic where men always ate their lunch. She recalls a day when the women involved in the Women Faculty Organization reserved it, much to the men’s shock. She talks about how humor was important as she and others worked for visibility for women. She tells how the “dining table” incident developed and showed a shift in the culture.

Next, Dr. Travis explains how the Office of Women Faculty Programs operates, stressing that women alone cannot make these changes to culture, the men in the institution must also be engaged. She talks about some measures of success: e.g. in 2007, nine out of the eleven faculty receiving faculty achievement awards were women. She goes on to talk more about the evolution of the early movement to address gender issues, when the faculty group was expanded to include women on the administrative side, as changes were not happening fast enough. In 1996, Dr. Travis observes, another survey was conducted about women in leadership confirming few women in high positions. At that point, Dr. Travis notes, Dr. Margaret Kripke was Chief Academic Officer and was in a position to correct inequities and identify rising-star women. Dr. Kripke was also on the point of retiring and concerned that she would leave a vacuum at the leadership table. (She was the first and only woman to date to sit on the President’s executive committee.) Dr. Travis explains that Dr. Kripke hired consultants (Wanda Wallace and one other consultant) to suggest plans of action. The idea for a dedicated office addressing women’s issues was formed. Dr. Travis applied for the position (and she explains why she decided to slow down her research career at this point), as she had always been passionate about gender issues.

Identifier

TravisEL_01_20140324_C05

Publication Date

3-24-2014

City

Houston, Texas

Interview Session

Elizabeth Travis, PhD, Oral History Interview, March 24, 2014

Topics Covered

The Interview Subject's Story - The AdministratorMD Anderson History MD Anderson Culture Growth and/or Change Gender, Race, Ethnicity, Religion Diversity at MD Anderson Women and Diverse Populations Obstacles, Barriers Discovery and Success

Transcript

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

What about the gender piece here at MD Anderson? When did you start to think about that as an issue you wanted to work on?

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

So Margaret Kripke, who was then chair of the Department of Immunology, Margaret and Josh [Isaiah Joshua Fidler, DVM, PhD [Oral History Interview]] came here the year after I did. I think they came in ’83. I came in ’82. And she put together—and there was an initiative at the time at UT System or in the state. It was—I can’t remember the exact name of it, but it was the Commission on Women and Minorities—I actually probably have that document somewhere—across UT System.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Oh, really?

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

So there was something very early on at UT System that was focused on this, and Margaret was involved with that, and so she wanted us to—she put together a small group. At the time, the president was [Charles A.] “Mickey” LeMaistre, and his right-hand person, Judy [Watson]—I forget her last name. It must be somewhere in the archives.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Yes, I remember Judy. I don’t remember the last name.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

So Margaret got Lillian Fuller, who was a radiation oncologist, Margaret Spitz, who was in epidemiology, myself, Judy [ ] Watson—and she was the right-hand to the president, and then Margaret. And we decided to do a survey of the status of women at MD Anderson, and it was eye-opening. Lillian Fuller was a big—she was a big advocate for women, and she felt that there were real discrepancies and inequities at the time, and so she was on this committee, and she and Margaret were both very keen to get the data and to see what they suspected and what we suspected. And so I was asked to join that group.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Why were you asked?

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

That’s a good question, because I don’t know if I know the answer to that. I’m not so sure that I do, except that Lillian, I think, because she was in Radiation Oncology and she had spoken with me and she knew that I had some interest in this as well. And so I think, again, there’s always been that undercurrent throughout my whole life, of equity, you know, particularly for women. So I was delighted to join this group, and we indeed found inequities. This was in—I’m trying to think what year it was. It wasn’t right away. It must have been ’84 or ’85. Probably Margaret has it in her history. I know it was before my son was born. My son was born in ’86. Maybe it was shortly after, because I remember I think I was the twelfth woman professor. And what we found was the pay wasn’t the same, there were inequities in pay. We found that it was taking women longer to get promoted than the men. So this went forward to the president and to Dr. [Frederick] Becker [Oral History Interview], who was head of Research then, and changes were made at that time.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

What kind of changes?

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

Salaries were fixed. I think they paid more attention to women and their promotion, because it was clear that it was taking women longer. I mean, if you’re on the tenure track, it didn’t take you longer, but the men were getting promoted on the tenure track earlier than the women, and, you know, the issue with that is it’s a money issue. It’s not just about the promotion, because with that promotion comes a bump in salary. So if you’re a few years behind, you know, you’re missing—it’s like compound interest—the raises. So the women were falling behind in salary.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Now, did you find at the time that women’s awareness, that there were equities? Were women aware that there were inequities when this survey was done?

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I can’t remember how many women we actually had at the time, but there weren’t many. I think some of the more senior women like Lillian and some of the others might have been aware of it, but I don’t think it was—you know. Well, there just weren’t that many women.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Yes, and I’ve talked to a number of women who had these kinds of aha moments. It was like, “Oh, my god, I had no idea this was going on,” and suddenly—

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

Like Lily Ledbetter [phonetic]. (laughter)

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Yes.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

Years later, somebody—you know, male colleagues said—

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Did you know.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

“Did you know?”

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

And often these stories are accompanied by feelings of betrayal and, you know, like, “Oh, my gosh. I can’t believe the institution did this to me,” or, you know, so they’re not happy stories often.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

Yes. I mean, I think—I don’t know. I didn’t have any sense that this was an unhappy story. For us it was about data, and I maintain this office—to this day I always say data are necessary but not sufficient. But you have to have the data, and the data speaks for itself. So I don’t—I mean, I think it was a matter here of the data, what are we going to do about it. Margaret took it to the president, and, you know, Judy Watson—it was Judy Watson—Judy was his right-hand person, and he agreed to have her on this committee so that he could be informed about this. So, you know, there was a buy-in, if you will, from his—at least from a knowledge standpoint, and then things were corrected. But one of the things we all know, and to this day is the case, you can’t take your eye off the ball, even today. It’s something you have to monitor. And so what happened after that is we started an organization, loose organization called the Women Faculty Organization, volunteers all of us, to monitor data, to raise the visibility. By that time, Genie Kleinerman [Eugenie Kleinerman, MD [Oral History Interview] ] had come, and she was head of pediatrics. Who else was here? But we were beginning to have at least a critical mass, a small critical mass, if you will, of women who were very interested in the topic and wanted to make sure that women were paid fairly, were getting promoted, were provided opportunities. It’s about providing opportunities and access to the opportunities. I mean, I always say, “All I can do is open a door for you. When you walk through that door, you have to—you’re on your own.” But it’s opening those doors and providing access to those opportunities, I think, that’s so important.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Now, it sounds as though these were very senior women who were involved at this time.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

Yes, yes.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

And to what degree did that make a key difference?

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

I think it makes—I think it’s critical, because you have credibility. You know, you’ve earned your stripes. You have your grant. You’ve written your papers. We all had done some service to the institution. Lillian Fuller was an internationally known radiation oncologist, well respected. Margaret, of course, was the first woman department chair and built up the Chair of Immunology. I think I was a professor when we did this. I was well established in my career by that time, had grants, and was well known in my community. So I think that it was critical that we all had tenure. (laughs) We were all tenured.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Yes.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

And Margaret Spitz—so Margaret Spitz has an interesting story because she took off to raise her kids and then came back. She was part-time for a while, and I can’t remember if she was then still part-time, but she was a chair at the time. So I was probably—and Lillian wasn’t a chair, and neither was I, but, yes, Margaret Spitz and Margaret Kripke. And then, of course, Judy Watson was really key to this because she had the ear of the president. And being senior, I think, was critical. I’m not so sure it would have gotten the attention of the president, I’m not so sure that the changes would have been made if you didn’t not only have senior women who had credibility.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Were there any effects on the culture? I mean, how were you seen? I mean, did people think, oh, you’re—

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

Troublemakers. (laughs)

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Okay. Well, tell me about that. I mean, what—and you understand how I’m asking, I mean, just because it’s got to be, kind of, you’re throwing pebbles in the pool here.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

Yes, yes, you are, and, you know, the men were skeptical. I mean, one of the things that has always won us champions is when you do a salary analysis and men get their salary increased, too, because some of them weren’t being paid.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Oh, really.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

Yes, that happened to one individual who’s still in the institution, who—we did a second salary analysis in—it wasn’t 1996. It was before then. Maybe it was that first analysis. But anyway, he came up to me and he said, “Liz, I have to thank you.” And I said, “Okay. For what? You’re welcome, but for what?” He said, “You know, it was—I got my contract and I had this salary increase, and I went in to the chair of my department. I said, ‘Thank you, but what is this? How did this happen?’ He said, ‘Those women analyzed the salaries of all the faculty and both the women and men were—there were some men, and we had to fix your salary.’” Talk about how to win an advocate, because it’s for both. It is for both. Everything—I mean, I do salary analysis, and every year, it doesn’t matter, you look at everybody, and if it’s not there, it’s not there. I don’t care what you look like and what gender you are. It’s just that simple.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Absolutely.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

It’s just that simple. But there were inequities. I mean, yes, there—women weren’t on a whole lot of committees. They certainly didn’t have any high-profile positions until Margaret was appointed in the nineties to—Margaret Kripke—into a leadership position. There were very few department chairs who were women, very few professors who were women, and it was just working on all those issues. I remember one of the things we wanted to do, just like that picture up there—

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Oh, the Legends and Legacies picture.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

The Legends and Legacies, yes, and one of the reasons for that picture was to raise—or for the book, was to raise the visibility still—and this was, what, 2008—to raise the visibility of the women and say here is—this is just a small sampling of the women in this institution and what they have—what they are doing, and also to have a representation of that in a picture, you know, because—and so the way we chose to do that, there used to be, when we had the faculty dining room, which is over on the eleventh floor in the Clark Clinic Building, used to be a big table down the middle, big rectangular table, could seat about ten or twelve, always occupied by men. So by that time we had enough of us, and this is when the Women Faculty Organization, we decided we were going to make ourselves visible, and so we told the dining room staff we were reserving that table that day. So the men all came in, their table was reserved, and they were moderately horrified. Who would reserve their table? Then, of course, all the women came in and sat down. There were mouths dropping open. (laughs) I went up to then the salad bar to get something. On the way back, one of the guys jokingly, but only half so, said, “Liz, what are y’all doing over there? Plotting a downfall?” “No,” I said, “just a takeover.” (laughs) So there was—we tried to—you know, humor always goes a long way, if you can do this with some humor, and I think that—

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Was that something you did regularly, reserve that table, or was that a one-time kind of show?

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

Well, it was—I don’t think we ever reserved it, but it was interesting. So women started—I started to sit at that table with the men, and so did other women. So that’s how you change culture, to the point that a group of those men around that table would go out for a big dinner once a year, and they thought of me so much as one of them that they even thought about inviting me to that dinner [inaudible]. (laughs)

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

They didn’t invite? They did invite you?

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

They didn’t, but they told me they were thinking about it. I said, “That’s okay. You guys can have your night out. I don’t need to do that.” But I think that’s how you start to change culture. You start—you change culture by, you know, now one of the things we did when the office opened, is we never—we don’t do anything for the women, particularly for nominating them to go to leadership development awards or career development—or leadership development programs, career development programs like the AAMC. I would call the chair of the department and I’d say—you know, most of them—by now I have been here a long time, and I’d say, “You know, Jim, here’s so-and-so in your department. We think she’d really be great, you know. Give her some opportunities.” And we would tell them, and this is true for awards, we would say, “We’ll do all the work, and if you agree, you get to sign the letter and send it in, but we’ll prepare all the documents for you.” And they said, “Sure.” So we continued to do that now. Now, and the process changed a little bit, but now they’re sending us names. That’s how culture changes.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

And it was our willingness, I think, to reach out and say—you know, because you’ve got to engage them. I’ve said this from the very beginning, “You can’t do this. Only the women can’t do this. You have to engage the men.” And I think they’re pretty engaged these days. Faculty achievements awards a few years ago, there was not one woman who got it one year. And, oh, I was just more than shocked. Unbelievable. But my son’s father, his motto is, “You don’t get mad; you get even.” I don’t always ascribe to that theory, but this time I did. And there’s a picture up there. See that behind—there’s a whole bunch of women. Here they are. It was two thousand—

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Oh, okay. Yes.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

These were all faculty convocation 2009.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

2009.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

Out of eleven awards, nine of them were women.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Wow.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

And that was done by just doing it.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Right.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

By just getting the chair to say, “We think so. What do you think about so-and so for faculty achievement award in education or research?” And, you know, I don’t think—I don’t think it’s ever intentional. I choose to think it’s not intentional, and I don’t think it is. I think people just think of people who look like them. And I think you have to be—raise your awareness to think of others. Even women. I mean, I’ve had women who are putting together programs, you know, for a meeting, and they’ll say, “I didn’t have any women.” And I said, “I know. That’s what happens. You have to be aware of that.” And I think it was just making—helping the men, the chairs. I’d say, “What do you think? She looks really good to me for this award. What do you think?” They said, “Yeah, let’s do that.” “Okay, we’ll write it for you. We’ll send you a draft of the letter. You can do whatever you want to fix it, we don’t care, and then we’ll take care of it. We’ll submit it. You don’t have to do anything. We’ll do all the hard work.” And we still—we still help with that. We still help to do that, because I think that they just think of whoever off the top of their heads.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

So tell me how you moved from the committee to having this Department of Women Faculty Programs. How did that happen?

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

I actually had nothing to do with that. That was Margaret Kripke and John Mendelsohn [Oral History Interview]. So Margaret, in her position as the chief academic—we still had the Women Faculty Organization. Then we became the Women Faculty Administrators Organization.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

How did—why that split or change?

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

Because we felt it was important to engage as many women as possible. We felt it was important. There are a lot of women on the administrative side of the house who also, you know, weren’t getting promoted, you know, and the issues are the same. So we have the organization, but the changes weren’t happening quickly enough. In 1996 when John Mendelsohn was here, we did another survey, and it was mostly about women in leadership, and there were still pages and pages and pages of men in leadership positions, with very few women in leadership positions. And this was 1996. So Margaret at that time—and I can’t remember the exact date that Margaret—she was appointed as, I think—well, she finally became the chief academic officer and executive vice president. Prior to that, she was, I think, vice president for academic affairs, but I’ll have to check that because I can’t remember exactly what her title was. But as the chief academic officer, in particular, she could kind of look over the landscape and make—you know, if there were inequities, she could right them. She could, you know, identify rising-star women, you know, and help get them to the AAMC programs. We sent, and we continue to send, women to the program, which develops women leaders for academic medicine. So she decided to step down and retire, and at that point she was concerned that there would be nobody in her position in that office, in the President’s Office, and she was at that point at the leadership table. She was one of the four at that time, and she was at the leadership table. She was the first woman to be at that leadership table and continues to be the only woman to be at that leadership table. So when she decided to retire, she was really afraid that things would slip again if somebody wasn’t watching it, brought in a couple—I was on the committee, brought in a couple consultants to tell us how do we—number one, we’re not happy with the pace this is happening, and, number two, how do we make sure that it continues and pick up the pace? And their recommendation was you needed to be, as I say, somebody’s day job. You can’t do this work and run a lab full-time.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Can I ask you, who was the consultant that you brought in?

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

There were two of them, actually.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

And did they specialize in gender issues or—

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

Yes, one of them for sure did. I can go back and look.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Okay. I was just curious.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

Yes, I’ll go back and look.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Thank you.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

So at that point, I decided that—you know, I had become very, very interested in doing this and was doing a lot of work around this and decided to go ahead and apply for the position. Also, you know, I’d been doing research for, what, twenty years or so by then, and if you can continue to do more research, this just sounded like it was something I’d always been interested in, passionate about, and it was a new challenge. And I’ve always loved challenges, obviously, and so I decided to apply. It was a national search, and I was, you know, given the position.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

Now, so there was a decision to, as you said—

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

There was a search committee, etc.

Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:

—make it someone’s day job.

Elizabeth Travis, PhD:

Right.

Recommended Citation

Travis, Elizabeth L. PhD and Rosolowski, Tacey A. PhD, "Chapter 05: Gender Issues at MD Anderson and the Creation of Advocacy and Equity Services for Women A: The Administrator" (2014). Interview Chapters. 1023.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/1023

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