Chapter 02 : Choosing Neuroradiology at the Field’s Infancy
Files
Description
In this chapter, Dr. Leeds explains why he chose to specialize in neuroradiology when the field was in its infancy. He notes that he was one of the founders of the American Society of Neuroradiology (ASN) in 1960 and that he was the first individual to receive an NIH Fellowship in this new field. He talks about his mentor, Dr. Tavares.
Next he sketches the state of the field and the challenges involved in diagnosing neurological issues. Dr. Leeds notes that he and Dr. Tavares wrote a book on the veins in the brain; he describes brain angiography and talks about the importance of understanding anatomy.
Next, Dr. Leeds notes that three of the original fourteen founders of the ASN are still living. He then briefly sketches his career track and major colleagues from his 1961, when he was hired as an assistant professor in the Department of Radiology at the University of Southern California at Los Angeles until his role as Director of Department of Radiology and Radiation Therapy at Beth Israel Medical Center in New York [1985-1991].
Identifier
LeedsNE_01_20170530_C02
Publication Date
5-30-2017
Publisher
The Making Cancer History® Voices Oral History Collection, The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center
City
Houston, Texas
Interview Session
Topics Covered
The Interview Subject's Story - Professional Path; Overview; Definitions, Explanations, Translations; Mentoring; On Mentoring; Leadership; On Leadership; Discovery and Success; Understanding Cancer, the History of Science, Cancer Research; The History of Health Care, Patient Care
Creative Commons License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License.
Disciplines
History of Science, Technology, and Medicine | Oncology | Oral History
Transcript
T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D.:
OK, so our counter is moving, and the time is 9:55 on the 30th of May, 2017, and I am in the Historical Resources Center Reading Room this morning with Dr. Norman E. Leeds, who has graciously agreed to come in and talk with me. And just a few details before we start about Dr. Leeds’s background. You came to MD Anderson in 1991. Is that correct?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Correct. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. OK. As a professor in the Department of Diagnostic Radiology, with the Kennedy Chair.
Norman Leeds, MD:
No. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. No. Not at that time?
Norman Leeds, MD:
No. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. OK.
Norman Leeds, MD:
It took me a few years to... You have to be elected, right? So they want to know whether you have any value. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. OK. (laughter)
Norman Leeds, MD:
So you have to be here to get it. That’s my presumption. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. OK, yeah. Well, that makes sense. I wasn’t quite sure how that worked. It was --
Norman Leeds, MD:
No, I came here as head of the Section of Neuroradiology. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Oh, OK.
Norman Leeds, MD:
And Professor of Radiology, which I had been elsewhere. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. OK. And so, again, you’ve retired twice. The year of your first retirement was...?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Two thousand three. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Two thousand and three. OK. And your status today, Professor Emeritus, or...?
Norman Leeds, MD:
I am Professor Emeritus, but not really. I’m just plain Professor, because I couldn’t get this [indicates his institutional badge] for Professor Emeritus. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Oh, the badge, right.
Norman Leeds, MD:
So I had to... I could not be—even though they wanted to give it to me, the Chairman wanted, I had to forego my Professor of, you know, and be just a plain professor. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. So that you could be on two days a week.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Be on—so that I could get... No, I’d get an ID. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Oh, OK, OK.
Norman Leeds, MD:
It’s interesting: I had to be selected to be Professor Emeritus, but it has no value. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Oh, interesting.
Norman Leeds, MD:
You’re not considered interesting. (laughter) T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. All right. Well, this is our first session, and wanted to thank you for coming in this morning. And if it’s OK with you, we’ll start kind of in the normal place for oral history, and let me ask you where you were born, and when, and tell me a little bit about your family.
Norman Leeds, MD:
I was born June the 9th, 1928, in West New York, New Jersey. My father was a physician, and worked very hard. He was a pediatrician and general practitioner with a huge practice, and I—that’s—that was what I had. My mother was a very intelligent, articulate woman, so I was very fortunate. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. And your parents’ names?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Hmm? T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Your parents’ names?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Frieda and Jacob. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. OK. Now, what do you...? You said your dad worked very hard. Did he have his practice near your home, or...?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yeah. It was in the home. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Oh, it was. OK.
Norman Leeds, MD:
But he was also Chief of Pediatrics at Christ Hospital in Jersey City, New Jersey. And he was really an outstanding doctor. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Now, was that kind of an inspiration to you? Did you feel that that influenced your choices later?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yes and no. I’m not sure it... Well, it influenced that I didn’t want to do what he did, because I didn’t want to work like he did, which was seven days a week, 12 hours a day, and I thought that was... I started there, but I changed to radiology. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. OK. OK, so the clinical practice was something that you were—had reservations about.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Did not—yes. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yeah, OK.
Norman Leeds, MD:
But I wanted to be an academic, and I realized that if you practiced medicine, internal medicine, you really didn’t usually, unless you stayed in a university—you were a general practitioner. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Why did you want to be an academic?
Norman Leeds, MD:
I don’t know why. I guess I always liked teaching, and leading, and doing things. And I think that means you... Plus I had an outstanding residency, and I felt it would be a shame to go into [private] practice having had such outstanding training. I had unique training, so I was lucky. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Before we get to that point, let me ask you kind of when it was in your early education that you began to realize, yeah, I’ve got a gift for the sciences, or I’m interested in academic work. How did all that evolve?
Norman Leeds, MD:
(laughs) I really don’t—I don’t know. You know, as I was growing I realized that I was better as a—would be better as a doctor than as anything else, because none of the other things seemed to interest me as much. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Did you have outside interests beyond sort of science classes, math, all that?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yeah, I did all the sports, like everyone else, I guess, and I enjoyed life. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. What were the schools you went to?
Norman Leeds, MD:
I went to Memorial High School in West New York, New Jersey. And then I went to prep school at Mercersburg Academy in Mercersburg, Pennsylvania for my senior year and part of my junior year. And I graduated with honors. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. So this—so you lived away from home during that period.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yes, it was very... I must tell you, it was hard. I had gone to camp for many—since I—and didn’t think twice about—but being at school and not having family was not easy. I had to learn how to... I think it was a good experience, because it prepared me for college. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. So how come your family made the decision to send you to a boarding school?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Because the—one of the teachers called my father and said I was bored, and that he thought the school wasn’t giving me enough information to keep me interested, and he thought I should go to a good boarding school. And my parents, I guess, listened, so I ended up at Mercersburg. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Lucky you that this person called, you know?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yes. (laughs) I realized I was not an easy pupil, because the school—you know, it’s a regular high school, and some of the children are bright, some are average, and some are below average. So since they teach, usually, to the lowest common denominator, it can be boring in public school. Not all public schools. My kids did go to such a public school, because the edu—you know, the standards that kids in my—where we lived, which we chose, had very bright kids, so it taught at a higher level. In fact, some of the parents—I was on the School Committee, so I—they complained that the teachers taught at such a high... See, it was the opposite of where I went to school. They taught at a much higher level, so that kids really learned something. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. What school was this?
Norman Leeds, MD:
This was in Chappaqua, New York, Horace Greeley High School. Was excellent. Both my kids went there. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. So how did this experience at prep school...? I mean, you said it was emotionally hard, and socially. What about academically?
Norman Leeds, MD:
No, academically, it was a very strong academic program, and did prepare—as they said, it prepared me for the rigors of college. I mean, it was a tough program at Mercersburg. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. So tell me about selecting your college.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Well, I... (laughs) I think I made a mistake. (laughter) How’s that? And you’ll say, “Well, what...?” Well, I went to Yale. Why I chose Yale people have asked. I really don’t know why I decided I wanted to be a Yalie, but for some reason I did. That was my first choice. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Why did you think it was a mistake?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Because New Haven is a small city. You know, Harvard is in Cambridge. Cambridge is very nice, compared to New Haven, and Harvard College is broader, and who knows what I would’ve been. I mean, you get... You know, you have to learn it’s your exposure, and I think Harvard College is really better. I mean, I hate to say this, but I think it’s true. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Well, it may be better for you.
Norman Leeds, MD:
And I think Princeton was nicer to be at, and actually Mercersburg was a prep school for Princeton, which I could’ve gotten into, but I had chosen Yale, and no one would’ve... And I can’t say—I can’t complain. It was a—I had a good education. I met very nice people. I enjoyed myself. But as I got older I realized that I had made a mistake. So I had a little more understanding for my children, based on what happened to me, that not always picking what’s among the best, and focused on it, is the correct thing. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. So what about the education there? How did you find yourself evolving there, and your interests developing?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Well, that—then I really began to think about premed, I think partly, I guess, because of my life’s experience, but also for what I could do. Seemed like medicine was the right thing for me. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Were there certain types of sciences, or certain types of classes, that you were more attracted to than others?
Norman Leeds, MD:
No, I really did try to take a broad education. I studied Russian literature, and I had a varied program. I majored in psychology, but which was, again, a poor major, I decided, because psychology is commonsense. I mean, when you look at everything in life, most of it is commonsense. I mean, I took business courses later on as I got ahead. The chair at Montefiore wanted us to learn everything, so I took the course in business, another colleague and I, the two more senior people, to learn. And I learned business. It’s commonsense. Most things require experience and common sense. And, I mean, I think that’s a factor of life, which I’ve tried to teach my children, that the broader your experience, the broader your common sense is. So you want a broad exposure. And I think I had that at college. I mean, I was not overwhelmed with the sciences. I took everything. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. That also seems to be very common. I mean, many people who kind of went through college in earlier generations talk about their education being very broad, and, of course, that really has changed now. People specialize really, really early.
Norman Leeds, MD:
I think that’s—by the way, I think that’s a mistake. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Really?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yeah. I think... I think understanding everything is—you know, being exposed is critical. It’s like, I use my son as [an example]. I mean, he’s the last one I would have thought, but the thing that influenced him, and made me realize why Columbia was such a good school, was because he had to take that core curriculum, so he learned about music and opera, and he... And the museums. So he was very interested in everything. And I realize now that that’s very [important]. Today, I mean, social studies and all, which are important for thinking, are not... I don’t think the educational system of teaching people earlier is better. It doesn’t make you a better doctor. It doesn’t make you a better scientist. Doesn’t make you a better anything. I think a broader education is critical, and I think that’s missing now. Remember, I’m probably one of the most super-specialized people, but it all came later. So it came. I didn’t need to sub-specialize. I got sub-specialized, is what I’m saying. So why did I need it before? T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. It was sort of a natural progression.
Norman Leeds, MD:
It just happened, yeah. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Right, right. While we’re—you mentioned your son. Tell me your children’s names.
Norman Leeds, MD:
My children’s names are Frederick G., or Rick—he’s called Rick—and Patrice G. She’s called—I call her Patti. Her kids (laughs) call her Patrice. And they’re both very well-educated and have achieved. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Neat, neat.
Norman Leeds, MD:
So I’m very proud of both of them. And they both went to excellent schools, so— T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. It sounds like education is a huge value, both in your family—your parents’ generation, your generation.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yeah. Well, I think it’s critical. I mean, I think I wouldn’t be where I was, and I don’t think I would’ve had all the... That was the one advantage Yale gave me. I mean, I—it sort of sorts you out. When you go to a better school, and you apply for things, you have a better [opportunity]. No matter what everybody tells you, which is babble, it makes a difference. When somebody sees Yale or Harvard or Princeton, they see an Ivy League, they somehow have an expectation that you are selected. I mean, there—people make choices, and there are clues, and one of the clues is if you go to Ohio State, it’s not—Ohio State is excellent, but still, it doesn’t say anything about you. But if you go to Yale or Harvard or Princeton or Brown or Columbia, you’re sort of labeled as an achiever. Huh? I mean, people are impressed. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yeah, they are. They are.
Norman Leeds, MD:
And I can’t say it hasn’t... I’m saying that because I’m sure it helped me at many steps in my education. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Now, your next step was medical school, so tell me about selecting your medical school. Oh, and just for the record, you graduated with your BA in 1948, correct?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yes. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. OK, and then your next move to medical school, tell me about your choice.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Choice was where you got picked. You know, I came at the most inopportune time, because I graduated in—if you looked, I graduated from college in 1948. This is when everybody was applying because of the war. We had people—I think the largest number of applicants. For example, George H.W. Bush, who’s now—was in my class at Yale. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Really?
Norman Leeds, MD:
But he was—I’m not a child, but he was five years older than me, because he was in the service, and I was lucky enough during the war not to be drafted. So I had all these people—I mean, getting into medical school there were many more applicants. When I got into college, I guess it was easier, because (laughs) everybody was going into the services, so it was—so that way it was easier. But when I went to medical school it was harder. So you, you know... And I think the thing that helped me was I went into the service, and—public health service, which I selected over going [into the army]. I got drafted. I was a medical resident. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. So I have your years of public health service 1955-57.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yeah, well, that’s when I had to—they drafted me. They called me and said I had to choose—I had to go in the service. So I... But fortunately, I had finished medical school, so they took me out of my medical residency, which was at Montefiore in New York, and I went in the service, and I said, I don’t really want to be a medical resident. I want to choose another specialty, because my best friend had been Chief Resident at Montefiore, and I went making calls with him. That’s what I meant. We would go out with... I was married, and he was married. The women would talk, and I’d go making calls with him. And I watched the way... And after an outstanding medical residency he was doing general practice, like my dad. So I said, why should I become a specialist and end up doing general practice? So that was why I made a decision to change specialties. Why I chose radiology, I—don’t ask me. I don’t know. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Can I ask you another question, though? Because I’m curious of... You know, did—what was public health service like? I mean, how did that...? Did it have an impact, or...?
Norman Leeds, MD:
That was great. Yeah, it was great. I enjoyed it. It was a two-year vacation. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Was it really? (laughs) What did you do?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yeah, well, I served in New York City, and the—it was really lucky. I was given a choice of New York City or Memphis, Tennessee. Well, not being very practical, I had never been to Memphis, so I said to my wife, “Why don’t we go to Memphis?” And my wife said to me, “No, no, no. I want to continue my education. Let’s stay in New York City.” T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Your wife’s name?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Bette. Beatrice Gordon Leeds. Gordon. Beatrice Gordon, and otherwise known as Bette. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. OK. And what was she—what was her program at the time?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Bette was a... Well, she had to support me, because I was [an intern and a resident]. We didn’t get paid in those days. So I graduated from medical school and got married at the same time. Bette was a senior at Wellesley, and then she went to work as a schoolteacher, so she supported me. And she wanted to stay in New York City. Well, we always lived by discussion, and I knew, since she was doing the working, really—I mean, I was in the service—that I chose New York. And it turned out to be the best choice, because we got an apartment. We lived in an apartment, actually, as—I was in Riverdale in New York when I was a resident in medicine, and I could stay there during the service. So I—we stayed in our apartment, and I worked in the outpatient clinic. I started because I was the newest guy in the surgical clinic, for which I was not ideal, but I didn’t have a choice. That’s where they put me. So you either would adapt or you suffer, right? So I adapted. But then the opportunity came to go work in the medical clinic, which I did, and then they actually offered me to go to the hospital, because Staten Island Hospital was a major public health service hospital. The only reason I didn’t want it was it would be an hour-and-a-half trip from where I lived, and since I was not going to go into medicine I didn’t see any advantage in going to the hospital and traveling, so I stayed at the clinic, which was nice, and I actually stayed two months longer, because it paid well. This is where we made some money, because I hadn’t anticipated this. But in the service you got paid, so I got more money, because I was a captain, I guess. That’s what doctors were in those days. And I did get—and then I chose radiology, and I was lucky. I got probably one of the best residencies in the country, Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center, which is part of Columbia University’s medical school, and Columbia Presbyterian had an ideal program in radiology, and that’s where I got my start. And actually the founder of the American Society of Neuroradiology was my—one of my teachers at Columbia [Juan Taveras, MD].
Recommended Citation
Leeds, Norman MD and Rosolowski, Tacey A. PhD, "Chapter 02 : Choosing Neuroradiology at the Field’s Infancy" (2017). Interview Chapters. 1302.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/1302
Conditions Governing Access
Open
