Chapter 05: A New Opportunity at MD Anderson
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Description
Dr. Leeds recalls that he attended the first talk about the new CT technology in the U.S. He comments on the administrations reluctance to invest in the new technology because of the prices, rather than focusing on the revenue it might generate.
Identifier
LeedsNE_01_20170530_C05
Publication Date
5-30-2017
Publisher
The Making Cancer History® Voices Oral History Collection, The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center
City
Houston, Texas
Interview Session
Topics Covered
The Interview Subject's Story - Joining MD Anderson/Coming to Texas; Definitions, Explanations, Translations; Overview; Understanding Cancer, the History of Science, Cancer Research; Joining MD Anderson/Coming to Texas; Personal Background; Technology and R&D; Leadership; On Leadership; On the Nature of Institutions; MD Anderson Culture; Leadership; On Leadership; The Institution and Finances
Creative Commons License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License.
Disciplines
History of Science, Technology, and Medicine | Oncology | Oral History
Transcript
T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D.:
You had started a while ago telling about, you know, getting the call about coming to MD Anderson. Let’s go back to that. Tell me how that all happened, that you made the decision to come here.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Well, I got a call from Jack Edeiken, MD. I knew Jack, vaguely. Jack Edeiken is one of the world’s—was—I shouldn’t say—was one of the world’s great bone radiologists. His daughter works here still. And his daughter-in-law now works here, in Radiology. And she became a neuroradiologist, his daughter-in-law. But Jack called me and said, “There’s an opening at MD Anderson.” And he was picked—Gerry Dodd [oral history interview] was the first Chair of Radiology here. And actually, I was very friendly with Gerry, because Gerry was a very close friend of Jack, and Jack Edeiken became, when I came down here, became my best friend, and we were very close friends ever since I came here. Well, he called me and said, you know, “We have an opening.” And I said, you know, “I don’t know.” You know, so I talked to him. I had to talk to him. I think I—he called me a couple of times. And I finally said, “OK, I’m going to come and look.” Because I told my wife, she said, “Texas? You’ve got to be kidding.” For once, she was really angry at me. And when you’re married as long as I was—you know, we had two kids and so forth... I mean, there were jobs I didn’t take, or look at, because I couldn’t move. I mean, you know, when your kids are in school, it really—you know, I learned you can’t move, because the kids suffer. And no matter how important it is, it’s probably more important not to move, although sometimes, you know, the job is so good you... Anyway, so he called—and he called me a second time, and I did, I came down. And, well, and then I had written one of my first papers with Sid Wallace [oral history interview]. Sid Wallace [MD; oral history interview] was number two to Gerry Dodd [MD]. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yeah, I interviewed him.
Norman Leeds, MD:
And I knew Gerry Dodd well because we had been in Philadelphia. When I was in Philadelphia, at Albert Einstein Northern, and the Children’s Hospital, I knew Jack and Gerry and Sid. And Sid and I had written one of these great papers on cavernous carotid artery branches, which no one knows anything about. But we had written that paper. So I said, “OK, I’ll come...” They want—I was one of the Philadelphians—I was very big in their eyes, because I was a Philadelphian—I was from Philadelphia. That was—to them, they thought it was the greatest. (laughs) So it was an advantage. It’s—like I said to you, you know, certain things fall in [place]. So I came down and I looked. You know, I didn’t know anything yet. I knew enough about MD Anderson, but I didn’t realize, you know. And I started to think about it. And since I was a chairman, I—and I really wanted to give it up. And I was leaving Beth Israel, because I wasn’t happy there, and because I didn’t like the president of the hospital. And I thought, gee, a change. I didn’t want... And I decided I didn’t want a chair. I didn’t want... There were several chairs available to me when I was looking, but I really didn’t want a chair. And I thought doing brain tumor neuroradiology might be exciting, because I brought a, you know, a new approach, an understanding. So I decided I wanted it. [ ] T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Wasn’t going to ask.
Norman Leeds, MD:
And I said to him, “This is what I want.” So he said, “This is too much [money],” Sid said to me. So I said, “Sidney, then I can’t come.” I said, “If I can’t get what I need, my wife is going to be unhappy, and if I don’t get what I need, her unhappiness will outweigh whatever offer you make.” So I said, “I’m sorry. Go to the rest of your list.” I, by the way, turned down Harvard Medical—Mass General to be [head] of neuroradiology, because Taveras offered me that job. I said, “How much do you pay?” He told me. I said, “Juan, my wife will divorce me.” I told you, we had a great relationship. She gave in, I gave... You know, we talked everything out. And I said, “I can’t go. If you’re not going to pay me enough, my wife’s not going to be happy, and I’m not going to be happy.” So it’s the same thing. So I went home. I think two or three weeks later he called me and said—Sid said, “We’ll meet your price if you can come in December.” I said, “Let me just go home and talk to my wife, and then I’ll call you.” But I said, “I believe I’m coming, since you’ve...” And I did. My wife was not happy since. [She was teaching reading in New York City]. So she lived in New York and I lived in Texas. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Oh, really? So you—she stayed in New York.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Well, because I—wait, you know. It wasn’t give or take. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yeah, no, I understand.
Norman Leeds, MD:
She had a job, like you. And she liked her job. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yeah, no, I wasn’t being judgmental at all.
Norman Leeds, MD:
No, no, no, but, I mean, I wasn’t judgmental. I figured she really liked what she did, so I understood. It wasn’t me. She liked—and she wasn’t prepared to give it up. So we worked it out. I was fortunate enough to be able to travel, as the head of the section, so I left early on Fridays and came back at—Monday at 9:30 in the morning, on the earliest flight from New York to Houston, because I found... She would come. No, she was willing to do the [travel]. But I didn’t have enough of her. It was a lot of work, because when she came, you know, I made the bed. I cleaned—had the apartment cleaned, and so forth. And she was gone. You know, she worked in a school system. She couldn’t come late, or come... So she left late on Friday, because she had to wait until school was finished, and she had to be back on Sunday. So it was easier for me to travel than for her. So I did it. So we did it for a while. You know, I understood. I had no... I mean, she wanted to work, and she enjoyed what she did, and she was a—she had an EdD in Psychology of Reading. So I just did the traveling. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. And sometimes when you’re doing a long-distance thing like that, the time that you spend apart really enables you to focus on your work, so when you’re together you [are more connected].
Norman Leeds, MD:
No, no. But yes, but I still missed her, and I think she found she missed [me]. In the beginning she was angry at me, but then when she saw me she was happy. So I realized it was that she wanted the work, and it was that we both—it was not easy for me being here without her. And I did miss her, terribly. But I understood. There are two of us. So I made the trip, and I traveled every other week. I came to New York. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Well, that’s something. A lot of men wouldn’t do that, you know?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Well, I had... (laughter) We didn’t have a choice. Well, the kids were away, and I had... No, I love my wife, so I did it, without complaint, because I understood... And, you know, holidays she came, and summers she came, but... And she finally took a sabbatical and came. But otherwise, she was busy doing her thing, and I understood. So I... You know, when you live together a long time, you have to make adjustments. She made them for me; I made them for her. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Absolutely. So tell me about why you felt the opportunity at MD Anderson was too good to pass up.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Because it was—I could suddenly look at brain tumors. I mean, brain tumors is one of the things that’s a challenge, and always was, but I didn’t know as much about them, because we never... I mean, we did them, but most of them in those days died, so it really didn’t matter, in a sense. But I thought it would be exciting to really [learn about brain tumors]. And when I got here, I did. And then I also learned head and neck [tumors] when I got here, because that was part of neuroradiology. And since I was the section head, I had to learn it. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Now, you said that you brought a different perspective, because your experience was quite different. What was that? I mean, what—
Norman Leeds, MD:
Well, because I understood all these things these other people didn’t... Well, I don’t think they still understand how much smarter we were. I mean, you know, I was—I’ve been there from the beginning, so I’ve seen the mistakes. I’ve seen the advantages. I was actually at the first talk at—on CT in the United States, was at the Einstein [neuroradiology] course, and I was professor at the Einstein, so... But I had [to shorten my talk] about advances in neuroradiology. It was a good talk, and they made me cut it in half because they wanted half my time for Dr. [James] Bull from London to talk about CT. And I was talking about magnification, which I told you, subtraction, and angiotomography. Those were the... Which were good. But compared to CT, I mean, it was revolution—you know. We heard—we sat there and heard the talk. I suddenly realized I was at the beginning of a new way of looking at the inside [of the brain]. We’d looked at the surrounding [brain]—the vessels, the ventricles, the subarachnoids—but we didn’t look at the brain. All of a sudden, we could see the brain. It was revolutionary. Three of us walked out and—three top neuroradiologists—and we said, “There’s—this is something new.” One of them said, “They stole my idea.” (laughter) And we really laughed. They didn’t steal my idea! I had no concept of it. But I realized the two old [elders]—Dr. Jacobson, who was a great bone radiologist, and Milton Elkin was a great GU radiologist, who was at the Einstein—these were two of the presidents of the RSNA, the best society, and the American Board of [Radiology]. They didn’t understand—they weren’t neuroradiologists. You know, we understood. They thought it might not... I was about to buy a—we were bidding on a machine with the chair, which—we had a chair, because Dr. Potts developed the Potts chair for rotating the patient so we could move the air around the ventricles. And this was a chair—and had tomography, so you could slice through things. So it was really revolutionary. But it cost as much as the CT, and was obsolete once the CT was there, because the ventricles, because of the fluid in the ventricles—you could see. So you saw the ventricles, and the brain. So we recognized—again, it was knowledge. We recognized that it was new. And when MR came, I mean, we recognized the advance of MR over CT. So I was there for both. But a lawyer once asked me, he said, “You came after CT and MR. You know, how can you be an expert?” (laughs) You know, I didn’t know how to address this idiot, because he was a defense counsel. He was trying to challenge me anyway to tell—you know, that I talk about these things. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. What was the situation where you were...?
Norman Leeds, MD:
I was defending a case. He didn’t understand. What does a lawyer know? I don’t know anything about the law. What do they know about medicine? And they read a book and they think, you know... And I’ve—I don’t hesitate to tell them so-and-so was great, somebody said that’s wrong, because I then say, if they asked me, from that—then they say, “Well, you think Dr. Josephs is great.” I said, “Yes, he is.” They said, “Well, he says this, which is in...” I said, “Wait, I didn’t say I believe everything Dr. Josephs said.” I said, “You know, I’m an expert myself. I disagree with things he said. Doesn’t mean he’s not great, or this book is not good, but there are mistakes.” And I don’t hesitate to say that, I mean, if I think so. And I think, you know, my CV tells you that I know a little something about the specialty. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Absolutely. Sure. So, I mean, we were talking about, you know, the opportunities that MD Anderson allowed. I assume that MD Anderson was very interested in having all the newest technological stuff, and...
Norman Leeds, MD:
Well, we had to... It... Not necessarily. They had their first MR, and, you know, they really—I tried to explain to them I think it wasn’t [enough for our patients]. Dr. LeMaistre [oral history interview] did not understand. You know, it’s expensive. Do you know that three months after we bought a new MR, or added a new MR, it was full? In three months, the schedule went from nothing for that, because you had an MR, you know, to be full. You realize we can fill a scanner in three months, you’re making a lot of money after that. They didn’t understand... I kept explaining it to them. And they finally got a COO who I explained... He understood. He said, “You fill it in three months?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “We got to buy a new [MRI].” T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Who was this? The chief operating officer?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yeah, I forgot— T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yeah, we’ll think of it.
Norman Leeds, MD:
He got axed. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Oh, he did? (laughs)
Norman Leeds, MD:
But he was the one who understood. I talked to people at Montefiore about things. They did not—they just heard the price, and it scared them, without realizing that if you have the unit and you’re charging, it [generates income]. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Yeah. How long will it take to make up the...? Yeah.
Norman Leeds, MD:
You make—it more than makes up... They didn’t... This COO understood that if you could fill it in three months, we better get more. He never argued with me. But LeMaistre was very, you know... I sent Gerry Dodd down. I couldn’t—I—you know, we argued for it. But it took us a while to get enough going. I mean, it was a battle. They don’t want to spend the money, because they don’t understand that if it generates money then it’s worth doing. What gives you a name or a reputation, and so forth. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. And makes research possible, too, in other areas, absolutely.
Norman Leeds, MD:
Exactly, right. So it was—no, it wasn’t... No, we had to fight for equipment. I had to... Well, I was here at the beginning. You know how many we had? I mean, we had... (laughs) Yeah, we have about 20 now. I mean, we have an infinite—I had to fight for people, I mean, to add a person. And remember, every person generated money. I mean, our section generated the most money in the department. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Really?
Norman Leeds, MD:
So, you know, not because we were better, but MRs are expensive. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. Right. We’re almost at 11:30, so do you want to close off for today, and then we can schedule another session next week or the week after?
Norman Leeds, MD:
Yes, ma’am. Yes. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. OK, great. Well, I want to thank you for your time, and let me just say I’m—
Norman Leeds, MD:
Thank you. T.A. Rosolowski, Ph.D. —sure—turning off the recorder at about 27 minutes after 11:00.
Recommended Citation
Leeds, Norman MD and Rosolowski, Tacey A. PhD, "Chapter 05: A New Opportunity at MD Anderson" (2017). Interview Chapters. 1305.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/1305
Conditions Governing Access
Open
