Chapter 04: Interpersonal Skills and Philosophy of Leadership
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Description
CLIP Included: Dr. Sawaya begins this Chapter by explaining that he learned his interpersonal skills from his father (recently deceased) who was an internist and his mentor. Dr. Sawaya credits his father with introducing him to the life and work of a physician, most importantly by taking him along on house calls.
He next says that that he knew he would be a neurosurgeon when he took his first neuro-anatomy course in college: he was fascinated by the organization of the brain. He goes on talk about being mentored by superb neurosurgeons, then notes how proud he is of the group that he trains.
Dr. Sawaya underscores that he has not advocated a departmental culture where everyone is the same, going on to explain some of the leadership principles he has relied on to build the department (understanding strengths, building collegiality, giving credit).
Identifier
SawayaR_01_20130604_C04
Publication Date
6-4-2013
City
Houston, Texas
Interview Session
Topics Covered
The Interview Subject's Story - Character and Personal Philosophy Character, Values, Beliefs, Talents; Personal Background; Professional Path; Inspirations to Practice Science/Medicine; Professional Practice; Patients, Treatment, Survivors; Patients; Human Stories; Offering Care, Compassion, Help; The Administrator; Leadership
Transcript
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Where did you develop the interest and the skills to cultivate those kinds of interpersonal skills?
Raymond Sawaya, MD:
My father.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Tell me about that.
Raymond Sawaya, MD:
My father was a physician. He actually passed away two months ago—
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
I’m sorry.
Raymond Sawaya, MD:
—at the age of 92. But he clearly was my role model, because— He was an internist; he was not a surgeon. But you know—those interactions—what you need is to interact with patients, whether you’re a surgeon or otherwise, it really doesn’t matter. So I was fortunate to be with him in clinic, seeing patients with him at a very young age—early teens. He would ask me to help him do procedures, draw blood, do EKGs. But I tell you what was much more important than all of this was going with him for house calls. Because you go to a family’s home, you see the picture on their faces. You know how everybody feels, how one person’s illness affects the entire family. In the office, that patient may come alone, or they may come with their spouse or an offspring. It’s very, very selective. You don’t have the big picture, but going to people’s homes and seeing the anguish on the entire family’s face—the relief of having the doctor show up and the doctor is here. He’s here to help us, to save our loved one. The power of that influence for a young kid like me—I could appreciate seeing that. And so, of course, my dad had the right approach, and so that helped too. So there is no question about it, that I had a very, very good influence very early on—influence on me very early on.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Plus you obviously had also the kind of sensitivity that would pick up on that and run with it, too.
Raymond Sawaya, MD:
That is true.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Because some people can see that and—
Raymond Sawaya, MD:
So why some people are like that, others aren’t—you know—that’s a whole world of psychology. Clearly, I was fortunate to have had these wonderful influences on me and that I’m able to translate that in my own life for others.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
I’m curious, too. What about the amazing dexterity and hand skills that one needs to be a surgeon? Where did you begin to notice that in your own experience?
Raymond Sawaya, MD:
I’m not sure. I’m not sure, but I can tell you intellectually there was no doubt about it. As soon as I entered college and I had my first course or lecture on neuro-anatomy, it was obvious to me that I wanted to become a neurosurgeon.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Really? Why? What was it that attracted you so much?
Raymond Sawaya, MD:
Clearly, well that, too. Two factors here. One is the organizational structure of the nervous system is absolutely remarkable. You could have a paralyzed hand, and you will trace that to a very specific location in the brain. Okay, so there is this organization that to me is very attractive. But also, similar to my dad’s mentoring of me, role models in the fields of medicine are very, very important. And I was fortunate at that very early time in my studies and career to have encountered some really superb neurosurgeons. And when you see their capabilities and their approach and their influence, you feel you want to emulate that. So that was really, for me, those two factors together. Now, the skills—yeah, you could be interested in neurosurgery both intellectually and otherwise but not have the dexterity and the skill. That unfortunately, happens. Now I am in charge of training neurosurgeons through the residency program and Baylor College of Medicine, and so we do hire many, many medical students and turn them into fully trained neurosurgeons. And yeah, you do see that not everybody is a master or a potential master in neurosurgery, and that’s a challenge. We have no ways of selecting residents in neurosurgery based on high dexterity index. We don’t have that ability. How will you do that?
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
That an interesting— I was thinking of that question, because I remember many, many years ago I was listening to a radio interview with a man who was performing microsurgery. And this was in the late 80s, I think, when it was becoming a big deal to do that. And he talked about his mother had taught him how to sew when he was very young, which helped develop those skills.
Raymond Sawaya, MD:
No, I didn’t do that.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And well, I’m wondering too as you’re commenting—because I know a lot of people in the arts. And they are talking about how students are coming to them now with many fewer hand skills, because people don’t do crafts anymore. They are always on a keyboard, they’re not doing—so I was just curious, where that skill comes from? But it is key.
Raymond Sawaya, MD:
I’m fortunate that I was—I did find the skills to go along with my interest. And this has very much helped me establish the program we have today, because this allowed me to recruit some highly skilled neurosurgeons. And I am proud of the capabilities of the faculty I have here. And of course, don’t take that from me. What I’m telling you is what they tell me as I travel all over the country, that the group that I have assembled here is truly amazing in their abilities and skills. So that clearly—having the confidence to recruit people like that is important.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
We were talking about the recruiting from the point of view of interpersonal skills. And now you’ve brought in the recruiting from just sheer intellect, sheer technical capacity.
Raymond Sawaya, MD:
The whole package.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Exactly. It’s a tough bar to reach, I bet.
Raymond Sawaya, MD:
Yes, but what has not been said yet is we talked about the culture of the place. We talked about important common points here, having excellence, having good interpersonal skills. But what I like to emphasize is I do not support a culture where everybody has to be the same. And this cookie-cutter approach to behavior is not something that I like or support.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
What do you mean by that?
Raymond Sawaya, MD:
I mean that people have different personalities. They have different strengths. And the key is to find what’s the strength of this particular person and let that person run with it. And I have many examples. I started with a person—a certain individual—to take care of, let’s say, the education program of the department. But that person’s strengths really were not necessarily in that. That person’s strength was in leading a different type of committee, and so we made the transition and found another person whose passion was in training and education. And that person now runs that. So you will find—beyond a certain basic requirement obviously—you will find that different people have different strengths. They have different personalities. And that’s great. That’s fantastic, because then we are richer when we have different people bringing different strengths to the table. That’s really what I meant by that.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
That sounds like a leadership principle.
Raymond Sawaya, MD:
I hope so.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Sounds like one of them. What are some of the other kind of basic principles that you’ve brought to leading this department?
Raymond Sawaya, MD:
In addition to all that we talked about? Well, acceptance of each other I think is important. Protecting—through ambition, people may sometimes step on others’ toes, knowingly or more likely unknowingly—and to prevent that or to limit that from happening. It creates—and I think that’s the bottom line—a collegial atmosphere. And once you have very talented people who are respectful of each other, then the sky’s the limit. Then they are not wasting energy through in-fighting. They’re not wasting energy through watching their back or over their shoulder. They are using all their energies to create. They’re using all of their energies with confidence that they are being supported. So clearly that’s major. Another—you mentioned leadership principles—is help them. Give them the credit. It’s not for me. It’s not for my credit. I win if they win. The department wins if they succeed. And it’s amazing how many so-called leaders don’t behave this way. And we have many examples, including in this place, in this institution, where that is not the case, where the leader wants to take the credit, where the leaders expect to get the credit. Well, guess what? Your faculty is not going to be behind you. They are going to avoid you. They are going to do things in hiding. So who’s winning? And who is it serving? I’m blessed, because I recognize that this is an illness when somebody wants it so badly. It’s not worth it.
Recommended Citation
Sawaya, Raymond MD and Rosolowski, Tacey A. PhD, "Chapter 04: Interpersonal Skills and Philosophy of Leadership" (2013). Interview Chapters. 1540.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/1540
Conditions Governing Access
Open
