Chapter 03: Nationality and Nationalism: An Internationally-Focused Perspective
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Description
In this Chapter, Dr. Bogler responds to a question about how his early international experience helped track him to his current position as Vice President of Global Academic Programs.
Dr. Bogler explains that his observations about differences in German and English attitudes to national identity helped him understand that any individual needs to assume an objective attitude about the characteristics of his/her own nation. He explains why he has not taken American citizenship despite living in the United States for twenty years. He then tells a story of struggles he and his wife, Irene Newsham, have had securing German citizenship for their adopted children, Owen and Anna Bogler.
Identifier
BoglerO_01_20141110_C03
Publication Date
11-17-2014
Publisher
The Historical Resources Center, Research Medical Library, The University of Texas Cancer Center
City
Houston, Texas
Interview Session
Oliver Bogler, PhD, Oral History Interview, November 10, 2014
Keywords
Character, Values, Beliefs, Talents; Personal Background; Character, Values, Beliefs, Talents; Influences from People and Life Experiences; Cultural/Social Influences
Topics Covered
The Interview Subject's Story - Character, Values, Beliefs, Talents; Personal Background Character, Values, Beliefs, Talents Influences from People and Life Experiences Cultural/Social Influences
Creative Commons License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License.
Disciplines
History of Science, Technology, and Medicine | Oncology | Oral History
Transcript
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Another question. You know, with all of this intercultural experience, I mean, I was really struck when I was doing the background research and showed how earlier you had intercultural experience.
Oliver Bogler, PhD:
Yeah.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
How do you feel that influenced your perspective? Because, obviously, I mean, you’re working in Global Academic Programs right now, and, you know, it’s almost like you were perfectly tracked to work in this particular area. I mean, as you look back, what are some of your observations about your own development in this particular area?
Oliver Bogler, PhD:
I think the key thing is that what I observed, which was very interesting, and this is not without historical irony, is that moving from Germany in 1978 essentially to England, one of the big differences is the attitude of the people towards their country. So I was brought up in a very—I mean, Germany during my youth was very low key as far as national identity was concerned. We didn’t talk about it very much. We talked a lot about German history, including all the horrible things that had happened. My parents had experienced the war as children in different ways, but their parents hadn’t, so this was all things that we talked about and actually worked through. But I grew up in Germany. I never saw a German flag. I mean, you’d see a German flag in front of the government building, right? On the [unclear] there might be a flag or on the Bundestag in my day in Bonn there would be a flag. And then coming to England, the English were much more proud of being English and my friends were very sort of full of English pride. You know, the points when these things were revealed was when there was international soccer matches or competitions or the Olympics or these kinds of things. So that was really interesting to me. One area of comparison, I mean, I think fundamentally, to answer your question, having grown up in Germany but in an American culture—and, of course, Frankfurt is in the American Zone, so lots of American service people. At the time when I was growing up, we used to play T-ball against all the kids on the bases around us. And then having moved to England, I don’t particularly—I don’t feel very German or very much of anything, and I don’t have the luxury of believing that any one country is inherently superior to any other. There are things that I love about the United States and there are things that I don’t love about the United States, and the same thing for Germany, I mean. Many things I don’t like about Germany. Yeah, okay, when I go there, I sort of have some sentimental notion of home, mostly because of the familiarity of the area, but, frankly, my parents have moved. They’re divorced now anyway, but they don’t live anywhere close to where I grew up, literally, so it’s not like I’m going back to the house where I grew up in, but the surroundings are familiar. So I think it’s a sort of ability to appreciate that different countries have different strengths, different advantages, and not really taking any one country as sort of—so one of the things I still struggle with in being in the United States is that America is very proud of itself and Americans are extraordinarily proud of themselves, and I think they have many reasons to be proud of themselves. I mean, gosh, I certainly grew up in an atmosphere of—you know, my parents were huge fans of Kennedy and they’re very grateful for what America did for Germany, rebuilding it, my father in particular. I mean, he returned after the war having essentially an American identity, returning to Germany. But, you know, then there was Vietnam and other things, and now we’re dealing with things like the fact that the Americans are listening to the private cell phone conversations of the German chancellor, and the NSA and things like that. And I think sometimes I find it’s hard—my perspective is that it’s hard for my American friends to sort of see some of these things in an objective manner. To me, these seem like excesses of a system that is swinging towards excess. It has been for a while, you know. So I don’t want to simplify things. It’s a complicated thing. But I guess I learned very early that things aren’t better in Germany or England or United States inherently. There are good things and bad things everywhere and that you really need to take those things on, on their own individual merits.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
You’re the first person that I’ve interviewed who was born in another country who has not changed his citizenship.
Oliver Bogler, PhD:
Yeah. (laughs)
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
So tell me about that decision.
Oliver Bogler, PhD:
I think it stems from what I just said. It’s just I don’t have a particular enthusiasm for any nationality. I happen to have been born German, and it seems to be a reasonable—it hasn’t stopped me from doing any of the things I wanted to do. There’s also a practical aspect. Our kids are adopted, and we’re still—and here’s something I really don’t like about Germany. We are still fighting with the German government about their German nationality, which I find profoundly upsetting at some levels. So my son was born in Michigan and my daughter was born in Russia, and we adopted them when we lived in Michigan, just before we came to Houston. And the German government insisted, first, on testing whether the adoptions were legally binding by German law, and they said that’s because America isn’t a signatory to a thing called the Hague Protocol. There’s a Hague Protocol on adoptions, which many countries are signatories to, and because the U.S. is not—so, anyway, long story short, this was almost ten years ago now, we went through a very expensive and longwinded process and actually had to go to Germany with the kids and appear in front of a judge, which sounds more dramatic than it is. We met him in his office. It wasn’t like a man with a wig in a big room. It was just, “Hi. Hi, judge. Yes, these are real kids, and, yes, we’re—,” you know. So he said yes. He made his judgments and said, “Yes, according to German law, they are German,” though the adoptions had been done consistent with German law. So then we got them passports, and they got passports, German passports, dual nationality, and then—this is the hilarious part—here we are, five years later, I’m trying to renew the passports, and I sent in the materials, you know, and, no, suddenly the consulate here in Houston is saying, “Well, wait a minute. We don’t know what your children are called.” Because my wife and I don’t have the same last name. “We don’t know that.” It’s like, “Well, you can look on the passport or all these documents that we gave you.” “Oh, no, no, no. The passport is not a document of national origin. It has to be a birth certificate.” So now I find myself in the sort of Orwellian circumstance of trying to get my Russian-born and Michigan-born children a German birth certificate. It never occurred to me why Germany would ever issue them a birth certificate, but apparently that’s what I have to do. So we’ve been doing that. I consider it a hobby, because otherwise it would drive me nuts. And it takes months and months and months, and my mom’s helping. She paid the last installment of 200 Euros or whatever. But the problem is that the forms that they wanted me to fill out for the birth certificates, I don’t have much of the information because it’s all about biological parents, and we have only spotty information about—certainly about the birthfathers on both sides. Long story short, I am not going to relinquish my German citizenship until my kids have fully formed dual citizenship, and, frankly, that’s just a practical thing. They have no real German cultural identity. They don’t speak a word of German. But should they ever wish to study or work in Europe, this will open doors and make things much easier for them. So I am for sure going to get them that, and once that’s nailed down, then I could contemplate joining the United States as a full-blown citizen. I do find it slightly irksome that I can’t vote, because I am political engaged person. Ironically, I can vote in Germany, and I do. My mom is very helpful in getting me the mail voting things, so I love to vote in Germany. I don’t have to live with the consequences. And I can make political donations in the United States. As a permanent resident, I can donate to political campaigns, so I have a form of political speech, but obviously I can’t go to the ballot box. So, yeah, maybe one day.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Hmm. And your wife’s name?
Oliver Bogler, PhD:
Irene Newsham, N-e-w-s-h-a-m.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And your children’s names?
Oliver Bogler, PhD:
My son is Owen and my daughter is Anna.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And do they hyphenate your names or—
Oliver Bogler, PhD:
No, they just use my last name.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
They just use Bogler. Okay.
Oliver Bogler, PhD:
Yeah, yeah.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
All right. All right. I’m reminded of that fonctionaire mentality to the nth degree, but, yes, wow.
Oliver Bogler, PhD:
Yeah. It just caught me so off guard, because I figured once we had the passports, but apparently they tell me in the consulate, “No, everything’s changed in the last five years.” And I’m like, “Really? It’s changed that much?” (laughs)
Recommended Citation
Rosolowksi, Tacey A. PhD and Bogler, Oliver PhD, "Chapter 03: Nationality and Nationalism: An Internationally-Focused Perspective" (2014). Interview Chapters. 1556.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/1556
Conditions Governing Access
Open
