Chapter 10: Early Experiences with Race and Civil Rights Instill a Commitment to Equity
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Description
Dr. Jones talks developing his commitment to work for equity. He describes the unusual features of Baton Rouge, Louisiana, where he was raised. This community was isolated and unusually integrated, characteristics that gave him a false sense of the country's integration. He was never told that he couldn't succeed. Dr. Jones then tells a story of disobeying his grandmother, who had told him never to take the bus downtown. He recalls sitting in the front of the bus only to be pulled to a seat in the back. Next he talks about how South University (a Black college) has a school on the campus of the laboratory school that Dr. Jones attended at the time. He was "adopted" by some college students and through them was introduced to civil rights activities. He then had the opportunity to attend the Robert E. Lee High School that was being integrated. He recalls being shot at and attacked during this period. Nevertheless, he explains, when he enters a room he never sees race. At the end of this chapter Dr. Jones explains why his mother threw him out of the house when he was thirteen.
Identifier
JonesLA_02_20140116_C10
Publication Date
1-16-2014
Publisher
The Making Cancer History® Voices Oral History Collection, The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center
City
Houston, Texas
Interview Session
Lovell A. Jones, PhD, Oral History Interview, January 16, 2014
Topics Covered
The Interview Subject's Story - Personal Background; Personal Background; Experiences re: Gender, Race, Ethnicity; Experiences of Injustice, Bias; Gender, Race, Ethnicity, Religion; Cultural/Social Influences
Creative Commons License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License.
Disciplines
History of Science, Technology, and Medicine | Oncology | Oral History
Transcript
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And when did you know that you had that feeling about working for equity?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Well, I've always had that, that sense. I tell people that there are two major classifications of people: primarily minorities, primarily African Americans, and there's subclasses. It's not all or none. There are those who have been told-who have not been limited in their horizons before the age of ten or twelve, and those who have, those who've told that you can, or this person's going to stop you from doing this or that and so forth. And then that subgroup, there are people who have overcome it, but depending on the degree of how much they've been influenced in that manner, they're like a whipped dog. You raise your hand, he jerks and go to the corner. Depending on how much he's been whipped will determine what that gap is in terms of response. And I say to people that gap is a negative in terms of your success in doing things, because you always have that part of your brain operating in that manner. Then there are those who say they've done it in spite of being-"I'm not black. I'm something else"-Clarence Thomas is a [unclear]-who pulled the ladder up after they've gotten to where they are and saying, "You need to pull yourself up. I've done it. Everybody else should be able to do it," so forth, maybe. Then there are people who try to stay off people's radar screen, that, "I won't say anything. I'll just go along to get along. Hopefully nobody notices me, and I'll be promoted if I do what they ask me to do. If they ask me to do this, I'll do that, and I won't put up any resistance." And then there are those who will say, "I'm going to do it in spite of the man, and do it the way I think I can get away doing it," and most of those people are in jail. So that's [unclear] figure people out along those levels.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
What category are you in?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
I think I'm in the category where I was never told that I could not achieve. I was in a very isolated-even though in Baton Rouge, I was in a very isolated bubble to an extent. Baton Rouge, New Orleans, those places, well, Louisiana, southern Louisiana, unique, especially in the larger areas, in that the area I lived in, the postman was black, the grocery store was owned by Italians who were just one step above being black, "dagos" and [unclear]. (laughter) And so [unclear]. So we're all in this little isolated area, and the school, walking to school, it gave a false sense of integration because there were blacks in the area who were blond, blue-eyed, to very dark shade, but they were considered black. They were all there. And I tell the story that my aunt (pronounced "ont")-which people say, "Why do you say "˜ont'?" My aunt sent me to downtown to pay a bill and actually gave me money to buy a soft drink going and one coming back, and I saved money to ride the bus. [unclear] ride the bus. So I saved the money to ride the bus. I say I'll walk downtown and I'll save the money, I'll come back at lunch and ride the bus. So I got on the bus, and it was the first time on the bus. So I sat in the first available seat I could find, sat down, and this bus line actually was the bus line that came from downtown all the way on Highland Road [phonetic], past a very rich area of the city. Well, it started off when maids got on in the really rich area, then students, and then it went on out to LSU, and so the complexion of the bus changed as [unclear]. So I began to notice that passengers were standing and there were seats-my seat was available and the seat across from me, behind me. And the bus driver kept looking at me. I kept smiling at him like [demonstrates]. (laughs) And then before I could [unclear] to be polite, because I started to say something to the young lady who was standing, and before I could say anything, I guess the person sensing I was about to do something that was going to not be appropriate, I got a hand in the back of my collar of my shirt that yanked me out of my seat and pulled me all the way to the back and just put me down. And I was just very indignant. [demonstrates] Fortunately for me, I guess fortunately for me, the stop for my aunt was not far from where that happened. I got off the bus, I immediately ran to the house and said to her what had happened to me. And before I could get the full explanation out of my mouth, this big switch comes out. "Didn't I tell you not to ride the bus? You do not listen. You are too headstrong. Do not. Do not." (laughs) And I didn't ride the buses for a long time after that.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
I bet. Well, they were trying to save your life.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Yeah. And they were trying to create an environment where I didn't feel that I was limited in terms of things. So when the Baton Rouge schools started to integrate, I was one of the first to volunteer. The school I went to-first I went to elementary school, which wasn't that far from my mom. When they built the new junior high, they made the old junior high an elementary school, and so instead of walking to school, my mom drove me, and then I walked from her school to the elementary school.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Your mom was a teacher?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
She was a teacher.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And her name?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Georgia Jones. And I think it was at the time my grandmother died, so there was no one at the house for me to come back to. So when I was in the sixth grade, I had already been skipped a grade, and so they tried to skip me another grade, and I just wasn't emotionally ready to deal with older kids, so they put me back, which had both positive and negative effect. Negative effect was that I had already gone through part of the higher grades. I knew what was coming. So it was like it took a while for them to straighten me up on that one. But then kind of like the magnet school, which they didn't have then, but like each-I won't say each university, but most universities have a school on their campus, a high school, junior high, elementary school. LSU had this, [unclear]. Southern University had this, the Historical Black College. So you had to take a test to get into either one, and so I took the test to get into Southern Laboratory School, Southern High Laboratory School, and got in, but it meant getting up at five in the morning, catching the college school bus, the private buses that took people from different parts of the city up to the university.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And you were how old at the time?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Eleven.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Right. And you were born when?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
1949.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And your birthday is-
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Is January 12th.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Okay. January 12th. And you were born in Baton Rouge?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Mm-hmm.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Okay. So you're eleven, riding with college kids.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Yeah. Oh, that was-it ruined me. (laughter)
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
I mean, how so ruined you? In a good way or a bad way?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Well, my mom kicked me out of the house when I was fifteen [unclear].
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Oh, my goodness.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
I think it was fifteen. No, it was a little less. No, let's see. I was thirteen. Thirteen.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
I mean, did it turn you into a radical? I mean, what happened?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Well, I got adopted by the college kids, and I participated in the civil rights stuff that they participated in because the bus would go and I would go. I was their mascot. (laughs)
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
So these were students who had been radicalized.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And they were participating in civil rights. And the year would have been?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
1960. (Rosolowski laughs.) So that was interesting.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
What were some of the events you attended that you-
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Marches downtown, sit-ins downtown. (laughs)
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Did you ever get picked up by the police?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
No, because they kind of protected me. They'd shove me away.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Now, did you understand what was going on at the time?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
I would say probably not really. It's like, "Hmm. I'm not going to make class now," or, "I'm going to be late to get to class." That's the only thing. So it was interesting. I mean, they didn't do it often and I didn't go with them often, but it was enough for me to see some things.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Were there some students among that group that you became particularly close to, I mean, that maybe mentored you in some ways or that you looked up to?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
No, I can't remember. And I only rode the bus, I think, for two years. After that, there was a group of college kids whose younger brother got accepted into the high school, and so instead of riding the bus, which my mom saw was an interesting-I began to ride with him, and, in fact, one of the women that I rode with was my godmother. So I did that for the last two years.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
So you had a fairly extended family in the area, it sounds like.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Mm-hmm, right. So doing that, we still had to get up at five, five-thirty, and I would get back late in the evening. So when the opportunity to go to Robert E. Lee High School came up, it was close to me. It was the closest high school in the area, and so I said, "Me. I'll sleep later." (laughs)
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
You're not a morning person, I guess. (laughs)
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
I'm not a morning person. But the interesting thing was, the reverse happened in going to Robert E. Lee, in that the students I rode with were elementary kids, because they didn't integrate the bus system, so the high school bus that went to that school-and I think they did it for safety reasons, probably, because I would have been one of only two blacks on the bus-no, one of four on the bus. So what they did was they arranged for the elementary school bus to pick up the elementary kids and then pick us up, and the elementary school started earlier than we started, and so they dropped them off and then they would drop us off and then they would drop-but they only did that in the morning because elementary kids would be dropped and they got out earlier than we did, and so the bus would makes its rounds and then come back and pick us up and drop us off at home.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
So what do you recall about the integration-uh, drama? (laughs) At the time.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Fear for one's life. I was shot at, and the only thing that saved me was the books I was carrying, because it was a small-caliber gun and it didn't get through the books I was holding in front of me. I was attacked by members of the football team, managed to get out of that because the closest thing to me was a wooden globe that I was able to get, beat people in the head and ward them off. We were invited to an event one time under the auspices of a get-together, and somebody told me that wasn't the get-together I wanted to go to. I didn't go, but there was a bridge that I could overlook where the event was happening, and I noticed that it was not an event that I wanted to go to.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Oh, wow.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
But I did go to my senior prom. I was one of only four out of three hundred and fifty people there. But when we drove up to the hotel, the guy who was parking the cars says, "You're at the wrong prom. Your prom is over there."
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Oh, wow.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
I said, "No, my prom is here." "No, no, no, no, no. Your prom is over there." So I said, "Look at the license plates," because I had the high school license plates on the front of my car. I said, "I go here." And he looked and went, "Whoa, okay." (laughs) But shortly after, I would say maybe a half an hour later, I noticed that there were several police at the doors. I guess they expected something to happen. What I didn't go to was the after-party. (laughs) We got invited, and I, "Nope, nope, nope, nope. I'm going to go home."
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
So I'm kind of getting the feeling that, I mean, these experiences honed a kind of, I mean, physical confidence because you knew you could take care of yourself. You also knew how to judge situations and the danger level, figure out how to get out of it, how to finesse it.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Yeah. But I think the thing I tell people, too, and I hope that my kids are-I know my grandkids [unclear] this way. But for the most part, when I go into a room, I don't recognize race unless it comes to the forefront in terms of-so that's maybe why things [unclear]. (laughs) You know, if it's not right, then it's not right, and so I'll make the comment. Someone said to me yesterday when I was walking back, "So you're here?" I said, "No, I'm just visiting." And I told them about the strategic planning meeting that TMC had and that I'd made the comment with regards to having the reduction in African American full professors by 50 percent and basically in [unclear] science by 100 percent. And the person said, "Well, was Dr. DePinho there?" I said, "Yeah. Why?" He said, "You made that comment?" I said, "It's the truth. So he may get angry. I don't work for him anymore. And if I did, I would still say the same thing, because I did say it to him beforehand." So I mean, and I said to the person, "If you don't say it, it's never going to be addressed and it'll just be swept under the rug."
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Right. How early did you kind of know you were the truth-teller in that way?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
When my grandmother slapped me across my face. (laughs)
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Oh, really? When did she slap you across your face? (laughs)
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
When I made a comment about one of her friends. (laughter) Okay.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
(laughs) But that didn't stop you?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
No. My mom said, "The reason why your grandmother hit you was you were being inappropriate, and you need to choose when you make those comments."
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Mm-hmm. Now, you said your mom threw you out of the house, so, of course, I've got to ask you about that. Come on. (laughs) So what happened? Why-
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
I was dating a college girl. (laughs)
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
You-oh.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
And I didn't come in till late one night, and she said to me, "If you're grown enough to decide when you're coming in, then you're grown enough to live on your own." So I went to stay with a friend, my godmother, actually. So my father worked for the railroad. When he came home, he said, "Where is my son?" And she said, "I kicked him out." He said, "Nuh-uh," and so he went out and got me. We had a long discussion.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
(laughs) And how old were you at the time?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
I think I'm thirteen.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Thirteen. And how long did the connection with this college girl last?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
I'd say maybe a couple of weeks.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Ah, there we go. Flash in the pan. (laughs) Well, we're at noon. Would you like to go a little further, or would you like to stop for today?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
It's up to you.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Okay. Shall we go for maybe another half an hour?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Sure.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Okay. And then if it's all right with you, I would like to schedule another session.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Sure.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Okay. Great. Great. Well, I'm glad we got a little of that personal background too.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Yeah.
Recommended Citation
Jones, Lovell A. PhD and Rosolowski, Tacey A. PhD, "Chapter 10: Early Experiences with Race and Civil Rights Instill a Commitment to Equity" (2014). Interview Chapters. 606.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/606
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