Chapter 23: Writing, Teaching, and A Legacy Left
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Dr. Jones talks about post-retirement projects not addressed in earlier chapters; working on a Texas A & M University grant for $21 million to educate STEM scientists; stabilizing the InterCultural Council and the Heath Disparities Education, Research, and Training (HDEART) Consortium. He lists venues for his writing and summarizes the points he makes in them. He notes his work with Louisiana State University and other institutions to support minority students and create a pipeline of people interested in health disparities. Next Dr. Jones talks about the demographic shift in the United States with regards to economics and education and explains how this has an impact on healthcare. He gives an overview of wealth distribution in the United States, noting that a large percentage of the have-nots are white Americans. At the end of the interview, Dr. Jones says that he would like to be remembered as a person who tried to make a difference and for his impact on education. The talks about students he remembers and the effect he was able to have on the direction of their careers. He recalls his mentor, Howard Bern. He regrets that MD Anderson did not offer him a true academic home to engrain change in next generations.
Identifier
JonesLA_04_20140501_C23
Publication Date
5-1-2014
Publisher
The Making Cancer History® Voices Oral History Collection, The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center
City
Houston, Texas
Interview Session
Topics Covered
The Interview Subject's Story - Post Retirement Activities; Post Retirement Activities; The History of Health Care, Patient Care; Cultural/Social Influences; Women and Diverse Populations; Critical Perspectives; Critical Perspectives on MD Anderson; Obstacles, Challenges
Creative Commons License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License.
Disciplines
History of Science, Technology, and Medicine | Oncology | Oral History
Transcript
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
In the time we have remaining, what are the projects that you're working on now that you are retired? And I know that this issue of establishing your status has been really key to pushing those ahead, but what are your plans?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Well, I just got through helping Texas A&M-Corpus Christi put in a $21 million grant to create a training program for future STEM scientists, and hopefully that will be funded. I'm co-P.I. on that project. And that project actually ties back to trying to get some academic appointment here, because the primary grant that led to the $21 million grant, I was P.I. on that didn't have an academic home for a while until I got my position down at Texas A&M-Corpus Christi. Working to figure out how to stabilize the Intercultural Cancer Council and the HDEART consortium in terms of leadership, in terms of next steps, because I think, to me, those are going to be part of the keys for addressing health and health disparities. I'm going to write a column, a health column, when I feel like it, so I have direct access to the Houston Style Magazine to post my columns whenever I feel like it. The only thing that I've been told-two things I have to maintain: I can't libel anyone unless I can prove it in court, and I have to spellcheck, make sure all my [unclear] are spelled correctly. Other than that, I can write anything I want. So I've taken the opportunity to do that. And I write for other things. I think a piece on successful programs in addressing first-generation college students and minority students in terms of changing the pool, and why we don't have more of those programs across the country, I just heard this morning that the Chronicles of Higher Education are going to publish that editorial in one of their papers.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Wow. What are some of the points that you make for that population of students?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
I think if the programs are geared for them in a true effort to address their needs, they'll be successful. There's a high school classmate of mine who is at LSU, Sandra McGuire [phonetic], who has developed a very successful program of taking students who are not doing well, to end up with A's and B's in hard science courses, physics, chemistry, whatever. So she did that for the program at LSU. Eighty, I think, close to 90 percent of their students that they have taken in have all succeeded, and this is a large number of students. Last year, one out of every seven Ph.D. in chemistry came out of that program.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Wow. Wow. That's an amazing statistic.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
And it came about, and, as I said, the three programs I'm highlighting are three programs that have very dedicated individuals both in terms of training, but in terms of their careers themselves. The program at LSU is headed by Isiah Warner, who is one of the top chemists in the country, who was born in a small town in Louisiana, who went to Southern, got accepted into graduate school, ended up at Emory in an endowed chair, and then got recruited back to LSU and ended up he's now a Howard Hughes Endowed Chair there. He was chairman of Chemistry for a number of years, and as he got promoted, he began to incorporate his program that he started in his lab into the department and then into the institution. And he's done phenomenal. But the question I asked Isiah and the question I asked all three of them, the other two, it's almost as if the institution has shut the door behind them, because there are no individuals in that middle range behind them.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Oh, really?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
That when they step down, there's no one that I can identify that has the same passion, but not only the same passion, the same amount of power to do that. Same thing at UT Austin with Rick Cherwitz, C-h-e-r-w-i-t-z, and the same thing at University of Maryland-Baltimore County with Freeman Hrabowski, who's the president there. That seems to be the trend, that when they go, it is possible that their program will go, or at least the success of the program. And then I only refer back to here when I left. Everything that was behind me just-because there was no interest in grooming individuals. It's almost as if it was a threat to have that continue. So the question that I raise is, first of all, why aren't these programs being more successfully funded? Now, at University of Maryland-Baltimore County, it's not an issue, because the guy's the president. So funding and continuous funding is not an issue. But the program at LSU is, because when I went over there to give a distinguished talk, they were in the throes of trying to figure out what they were going to do because they just lost NSF funding. And I'm going, "Wait a minute. You tell me [unclear] telling me this, and you're telling me that they didn't fund you? It doesn't make sense." And then when Rick at Austin, he's scraping every day to get money, too, and he's been successful because he's been there a long time, and so he's made relationships with departments and faculties and that sort of thing, and so he's been able to succeed on friendship and favors by asking the question, "When you leave, who's going to do this?" And these are things that really need to be discussed, and I don't see it being discussed. Like when I asked Francisco Cigarroa, we were talking about-because I gave him several ideas about doing some things in his retirement, since he's now stepping down as chancellor. And he says, "Well, I'm going to do one of the things you said, Lovell. I'm going to do this Leadership Institute." I said, "Okay, but is it going to be focused on the underserved?" He said, "Well, it's going to be a part of it." I said, "That's not the question I asked." And he didn't respond. So, you know, my sense is, and as I said in one of my editorials, the idea is we are having this major demographic shift and change, it seems that nobody is taking it seriously that you're going to have to educate-90 percent of the growth of this nation in the last decade were people of color, yet nothing has been done to really make sure that this population is educated, and it's almost like we're developing a two-tiered system in terms of returning back, and in a worse way, to the end of the first Reconstruction Period, in that we're going to a two-tiered society. But the worst part of the two-tiered society, as I said, is that it's going to be populated in the same way that-and in a worse way, but in the way that it occurred right after Reconstruction. Because one of the best co-ops to raise the health and well-being of citizens of the United States was the cooperative established between poor whites, sharecroppers, and former slaves. They got together to form cooperatives, to feed their family, feed the neighborhood, that sort of thing. Very little is known about that, that people know. But with the rise of the Klan, they began to circulate perceptions among that group, poor whites, rural, and say, "You may be poor, but you're still white, and that's a value." And that began to create that schism that we still have today, and you now see it in terms of, but in a worse way, a more subtle way, with the issue of the Affordable Care Act. And as I tell people, it's not the best thing in the world, but it's a move towards correcting situations. You now have people, rural people, white people, who could benefit tremendously from this, who are attacking it because their perception, "It's for those other people, and it's going to give those other people a leg up over me," when they don't realize that this chasm that's taking place is including them and that we're losing, for the first time, the lead in economic growth in the world, because we are moving to the middle-class that has always been the mainstay of this country is getting smaller and smaller and smaller. So we now have the 1 percent controlling 40 percent of the wealth of this nation, and that's not getting smaller. That control is getting larger. So we're really going towards the haves and the have-nots, and a large percentage of the have-nots don't realize they have-nots, is white America. And because they're not turning their attention to educating this 90 percent growth, there are going to be even more have-nots that they're going to have to deal with. (laughs) And, boy, I don't want to see that in the next two decades. It's not going to be a pretty sight. I tell my kids, "It ain't gonna be a pretty sight. You're fortunate you'll be at least on the ebb of those haves, simply because of me and your mom and what we've been able to do to get you in charge of your careers and save money and do that sort of thing." But I don't know. (sighs)
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
How would you like to be remembered?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
As a person who tried to make a difference. That's it.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
How do you think you have?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
You know, every day I hear from people that-and I think it more in terms of education than in the hands-on. Like this young lady just got an award L_____ Macintosh [phonetic] at A&M, who just got a distinguished award from the Alumni Association, one of the highest awards A&M gives out, she took my course and actually took the workshop, and she actually took it twice. And I hadn't realized that she had done that. So she's now recruiting students from A&M to come and take the workshop. In her note to the student, she mentioned how the course had changed her life. And I'm going, "I don't remember [unclear]." I said to her, "I don't remember you taking the course." (laughs) She says, "I was in the hundred or so people that were out there and that was impacted." So there are people who pop up like that. I was in Atlanta one time, and I was giving-I tell people as a joke, because the meeting had gone on longer than it should have. I was one of the last speakers, and I had an airline plane to catch that I thought I had plenty enough time. (laughs) But because the meeting ran long-so I got up and I kind of condensed my fifty-minute talk down into fifteen minutes, and I was saying, "I could take one or two questions, but I've got to go." And a gentleman got up who was leading one of the branches of CDC, said, "Before you go, I have to say this." And I said, "Make it quick. Sorry, but I've got to go." And it was hard for me to stop him, because he said, "You probably don't remember me, but I came to your office one day and you provided me advice. And one of the things you said was to take your course. That changed my whole career direction. Because of you, I'm now section chief for Epidemiology here at CDC. My career path was just become a physician, just to go out and treat people. And then you told me your story about the [unclear]and saving people and that sort of thing, and I thought about it, and I took your course. And it changed my direction." And at the time, I was saying, "Hurry up. Hurry." (laughter) I said, "I've got to go. I've got to go." (laughter) And at the end, I said, "Thank you." Get in the cab. (laughs)
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Right. How ironic.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
But I wrote back to him, I said, "It wasn't anything you said. I just had to get home." (laughs) But it's little stories that I hear from my former fellows and from students, high school students, that's-so my mentor, and the thing that stays with me, and I repeat it over and over again, and I didn't realize it until I helped write his memorial when he died. And there were two of us-three of us, actually, writing it. And one of the individuals who's now an endowed chair at University of South Carolina-
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And this is Dr. Pente [phonetic]?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Howard Bern.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Howard?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Bern, B-e-r-n. And Howard said-used to say to us, says, "It's not the papers you write, it's not the grants you get, it's not the honors you receive. It's the people you leave behind to continue the work. That's your greatest achievement." And that's true. So that's, I guess, one of the-I was telling my wife, that's why I'm so passionate in terms of having fought for some sort of academic appointment, not that I couldn't do some of the things I wanted to continue to do, but to do it in a way that hopefully I can get it entrenched in different places where I can get it entrenched here. I think that's probably a regret that I have. It's not a big regret, because I look back over all the things I've been able to do coming here, but this was truly not an academic place. So there's something to be said about a full-fledged university and the things that you can ingrain into the academic environment of a full-fledged institution that I think I missed out on in some aspect of being here. But one has to look at what has been accomplished and the changes that one has been able to do on a broader range of academic institutions than just one that one represents, and so impacting the consortium and the institutions within the consortium is, in a way, having impact that I could have possibly had on one but not having on many.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Is there anything else you'd like to add at this point, Dr. Jones?
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
No, I can't think of anything. I think we've done a-
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
We've done a lot.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
We've covered a lot of ground, yeah.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Yeah, yeah. Well, I appreciate your candor and your willingness to go into kind of philosophical directions. [unclear] interesting.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
So what's going to happen with this? How is this going to be [unclear]?
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
Well, the interviews-well, since I'm going to explain kind of mechanics of that, why don't I turn off the recorder at this point. So I wanted to thank you for your participation.
Lovell A. Jones, PhD:
Sure.
Tacey Ann Rosolowski, PhD:
And I am turning off the recorder at about four minutes after noon. (end of session four)
Recommended Citation
Jones, Lovell A. PhD and Rosolowski, Tacey A. PhD, "Chapter 23: Writing, Teaching, and A Legacy Left" (2014). Interview Chapters. 619.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mchv_interviewchapters/619
Conditions Governing Access
Open
