Title
Chapter 02: Leadership Training at MD Anderson
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In this chapter, Dr. DeVeau talks about the concept and practice of leadership, her work in leadership training at MD Anderson, her reflections on some of the executive leaders at MD Anderson, the evolution of the Departments of Organization Development and Faculty Development at MD Anderson, the creation of the Leadership Institute, the concept of LEAD, and her efforts to create “a sustainable coaching culture.” “So, in essence,” she says, “everyone is a leader and everyone has the capabilities of developing their leadership skills.”
From:
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC, Oral History Interview, July 9, 2021
Transcript
And in that process in studying that I was much more intrigued by the applied aspects of IO Psychology rather than the selection and assessments and statistical analyses and research portions. So, I knew that I wanted an advanced degree, not necessarily a PhD, an applied degree, I should say. So, my doctorate is a PsyD. It’s a doctorate of psychology, and it’s an applied degree, and it’s specific in organizational psychology. So, it’s a little bit different than everyone else who’s at the Leadership Institute or at MD Anderson, is that it’s only the O portion of IO. And the O portion allowed me to dive deeper into coaching to understand career counseling, I did group therapy, I ran group therapy courses. I also did a ton of organizational analyses, all as part of my academic background that I later used as part of my consulting background before I got into Independence Blue Cross and then later, MD Anderson. So, the whole idea of, why psychology? It’s just an utter fascination with human behavior. I am one of three daughters, the middle daughter with an older sister and a younger sister who are just so different than me. So, I always was fascinated about how can they be so different and we have and share the same genetics and family upbringing? So, just that bases of family dynamics is what sparked my interest in psychology.
And I, also growing, I think it was just the dynamics of my family in general who were very open, in service to others. So, I had a lot of friends who had dysfunctional homes that came and they stayed with us and we always had some kind of houseguest who was a little bit on the down and out and we helped to support them, whether it was a family member or a friend. And sometimes it was those, “We’re of similar social economic backgrounds, I don’t understand why our lives are so different. What’s behind that?” And just being fascinated by the psychology of it all. So, that’s kind of what got me into it. And then people are just fascinating. I just find people fascinating and so interesting. So, that’s why I (inaudible).
Nina Nevill, PhD
Oh, I completely understand that. And that makes sense to me, a little bit more about the leadership background, then, as well, because from my understanding that’s such a huge field, and a diverse field and can really speak to how different people are, I’m sure. Again, this is coming completely from an outside perspective.
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC
Well, when you say the whole idea of leadership, one of the things that I recognized is when I had that crisis, my very beginning parts of my undergraduate degree, one of the things I realized is that in that learning, that I really wanted to work with functional members of society, and to help them be even better. And it’s the whole idea of the trickle effect, like if you work with someone who’s already good and help them, make them to be great, they can have—it’s like a throwing a rock in a pond. The ripple effects are significantly increased if I can help just one person, one leader, that impact can have lasting and broad effects. And that was just so intriguing about also working with leaders.
Nina Nevill, PhD
Is there, without divulging too much, would you be able to give me an example of a time that you’ve seen something like that happen?
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC
Oh, yeah. Sure. So, I guess there’s a couple examples that are popping in my head. I’ll use one of my earlier examples, if that’s okay.
Nina Nevill, PhD
Sure.
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC
When working for Independence Blue Cross, I had worked with, and really helped one of the subsidiaries. The CEO of that subsidiary was just launching that health insurance aspect in a different state and what did that look like, and really vying for that market. And in that, he was the CEO of that subsidiary, it is helping him think about, he doesn’t need to do it all. He needs to surround himself with the right people. And what is he doing to do that? What is his selection processes? What is his training processes? What is the culture he wants to establish? And how does he want to inspire others to those leadership levels? So, it’s not just about the technical expertise, it’s about the culture that they want to inspire. So, that was just one example. And as a result of working with him and setting it up as, what are you going to do to select, engage, and retain those folks, it was an entire huge program in which performance management came into play, also a little bit of succession planning came into play, too, and I was able to really help establish some pretty firm plans and processes for the subsidiary that was eventually then adopted by the bigger institution.
Nina Nevill, PhD
That’s incredible. It’s wonderful to hear, not only helping the individual who obviously has the ability to have a greater effect, but then, putting in something at a more institutional or even systemic level that can have that affect over time and more sustainably. That must feel empowering to be able to do that.
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC
Yeah, yeah. I think what I get the most pleasure out of, though, is seeing and watching his success. So, he is the one that was open to it. He did the heavy lifting. I might have just guided him along the process. So, it’s experiencing the success through others.
Nina Nevill, PhD
And this is sort of a fun question that I just like to ask folks because, why not? We get a variety of responses to this question every time, so take it however direction you’d like. But the question is, if you had to confidently say that you are better than roughly 10,000 random people at one thing, or a large group of people, what would that thing be?
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC
Oh, that is a fun question. What immediately popped into my mind was actually a running joke that I have with a lot of my clients is that I am better than the general population at identifying the emotions I’m experiencing, or the dysfunction that I’m going through. Being a psychologist, I am well aware of diagnoses and the running joke that I have with them is, I know when I’m being dysfunctional. I can diagnose myself. I don’t stop myself from doing it is the self-management piece I need help in, but I can turn and diagnose myself when I’m being a little nuts. And I think it’s that awareness that I think that may be one of my superpowers, for lack of a better word. But it’s only half the story. It also goes to—and you’re going to learn a lot about me—it’s like my struggle with my weight. I bounce around in weight, losing and gaining 40 pounds just about every year. So, I know what I need to do, it’s just doing it. And I think that is one of the things that I do, maybe better than most, but it’s the self-management and the execution that I sometimes fall short of.
Nina Nevill, PhD
That’s definitely incredible. Awareness is a huge piece of that puzzle. I think a lot of people spend a good portion of their lives just trying to get in touch with that. And it’s definitely a moving target kind of thing. Being in touch with it maybe in your twenties and your thirties, it can look different, I’m sure. That’s a great answer, though. I can’t say we’ve gotten that one, yet. So, that’s good to have something new on the books. Now, in terms of your earlier years at MD Anderson when you just started, I’d like to know just a little bit more about what opportunities you felt that it had to offer you. And I know you spoke a bit about this earlier, but if you could go into a little more detail that would be great.
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC
Sure. So, one of the things that was very intriguing—well, there were multiple things that were very intriguing to me about coming into MD Anderson. One is that at the time when I came on board, the idea of coaching was seen as a like a scarlet C. So, you were sentenced to coaching. It was the one last-ditch effort before we terminated you. So, I saw that as a challenge because coaching is so much more than remedial. And the idea of how do we convert or think through or help the organization, the institution, get to a point where people want coaches? How do we change it to a culture of coaching? So, when I first came on board, it is, one, I needed to wrap my hands around all of the coaching that had been occurring. And in that process of doing that I realized that some of what people were terming as coaching I would have never have termed as coaching. And some other vendors that they had chosen to work with were not qualified in my mind. So, being able to wrap my hands around that and begin to set standard operating procedures and practices around that was one of the first and biggest things that I had to do. In that process, it’s doing an RFP for appropriate vendors. I set out, what are the criteria that I’m really looking for? And then, having any and all institutional funds that are used specifically for coaching or what they term as coaching, it needed to go through me so that I can provide a pulse check on how things are going, monitor progress, report back to sponsors about whether or not this is a wise investment, and then begin to really think through of, look at all this money that we’re spending on vendors. If we take a moment and take a small portion of that and begin to develop it into a training program that our leaders can do so that they are better equipped, look at how much money we can save.
So, it was a bit of the ROI on coaching and then converting that into lost expenses, lost investment, actualizing future investment and the retention. And I used a bunch of our big survey results to really help speak to that story. And I also kind of—not kind of, but I also leveraged our counterparts in Human Resources to get an idea of what are the biggest pain points? Why are people leaving the institution? There’s all the research out there that says people don’t leave an institution, they leave their boss. So, what are some of the characteristics that will help people to stay? What do we need to do to train our bosses to be better bosses? So, that led to the whole idea and the evolution of leadership development, too. So, it wasn’t just for coaching purposes. There was a much broader perspective. I was just blah, blah, blah, blabbing, and I can’t remember if that answers your question, Nina.
Nina Nevill, PhD
No, that does. Absolutely. That’s very helpful in thinking about especially trying to get a sense of the earlier picture of how things looked. I’d also like to know if there were any key people at the beginning that you felt were helpful in allowing you to move forward with some of these things, if there’s anyone that comes to mind, maybe mentoring or advising in this process, or just that you worked with.
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC
Yeah, I think there were several people. So, the first person was Bill Wooten, who was my supervisor at the time, my immediate manager, who paved the way, made those connections for me to speak to other individuals. And then, in that process, I reached out to a number of key leaders and had them experience coaching firsthand and then they could be the champions so I don’t have to beat the drum, they were beating the drum for me. They were instrumental in that piece. There were a couple other things that happened coincidentally, or maybe not so coincidentally. We had a new vice president of Human Resources, Shibu Varghese, who came on shortly after I did, followed by a number of other senior HR leaders. So, I tapped into them about, “What are some of the things that you wish you knew when you first started that you know now?” Those kinds of things. And that led to the birth of a particular type of coaching, which is onboarding coaching. And I think the other piece behind all of this is, and I talk often about this, and it’s not a dig to our previous presidents by any stretch of the imagination, but things really took off, actually, when Dr. Hicks came on as ad interim, and then, with Dr. Pisters, when Dr. Pisters came on board. So, it was an evolution of how people thought about leadership and the characteristics of leadership in that process that helped, tremendously. And Larry Perkins, who’s the AVP of Talent and Diversity helped out a lot, too. When we were looking to launch onboarding coaching, he was one of the first people that went through the whole process. So, it helps to have our leaders go through it and then champion it.
And that’s the other thing I think that helped out tremendously is, I don’t pitch it as, “This is a must-do program.” I pitch it as, “Let’s pilot it with a couple key people,” people that I oftentimes choose because I know they have a lot of informal and formal authority within the institution, and if I can get them to be champions, I don’t have to advertise a blessed thing. And that is where it is at this point, Nina. I am getting so many requests for coaching and part of it was, or is, “I know so-and-so who has a coach, and I want one, too. How do I get in on it?” Or, “I know so-and-so who went through CoachRICE,” which is our in-house collaboration with the Doerr Institute for New Leaders at Rice University, of delivering an International Coaching Federation, it’s called ICF, it’s one of the only—well, there are several but it’s the largest accrediting coaching bodies out there to bring in a certified or approved training in-house. So, we are training our internal leaders to be coaches. After they get through a certain number of hours of coaching hours, and they do a couple other things, they can apply for a credential with ICF and then, in essence, build and put out their own shingle and make money outside of MD Anderson, if they want to. So, there’s ways that—
Nina Nevill, PhD
Wow, that’s incredible.
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC
Yeah, yeah. It’s super cool to think about it. Because we’re at the point where were creating a sustainable coaching culture by educating our leaders on what it is like to be an internal coach, and then, they are, in essence, the people that, it’s like that ripple effect with the pond, they are doing the coaching and they’re having that impact on others. So, it goes back to, if I just touch a couple of key people and get them, sometimes people will call it, get them to drink the Kool-Aid with me, then everyone we help will be drinking the Kool-Aid.
Nina Nevill, PhD
Well, it sounds like you’ve seen a lot of change in your time. And you mentioned something earlier about the origins of the Leadership Institute and before that, your role coming in. Could you speak a little bit more about what, I guess, first of all, a little bit about the history of the Institute, but more so, I’m curious about the type of initiatives that were in place felt less prevented and more so as a last resort, if you could talk about a little bit of that change that you’ve seen.
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC
Sure. So, I think—so when I first started, there was a department called Organization Development. And then as we evolved and developed and brought on more projects and programs, impacted the institution at a larger level, not just with performance management, but we also brought in the employee opinion survey. We helped develop tons of different programs that addressed, what are some of the things that employees need? We took a hardcore look at what are some of the assessments that we’re having people go to in order to even come into the institution? So, part of it is, and I’ll give you an example, one of the things that we’ve really worked on was the idea of how do we help our colleagues in recruitment narrow the pool of applicants down to the best pool possible? And we do that through assessments. So, one of the biggest ones, we get thousands of people who apply for a single administrative support position. So, having assessments and having them go through assessments, like, do you really know how to use PowerPoint? Things like that, to have them really assess their capabilities, helps us narrow down that thousands to a couple hundred. And then, we continue to do that through a more manageable size for our colleagues in recruitment, or else they’d be flooded. It’s just incredible how many applications we get.
That’s just one of the things that Organization Development did. And as we got more and more success with a lot of the programs, the assessments, the interventions, and the surveys that we instituted, we had become to be seen as institutional resource. But being seen as an institutional resource, we weren’t allowed into certain areas. So, as in any big institution there are certain politics that keep you in or out of certain things. We had had tremendous success, and continue to have success, in our admission areas, specifically the administration admission area. So, those would be the individuals that people typically think as executives. One of the areas that we lacked or didn’t have as much success in reaching out to, not that we didn’t have success in helping them, but being seen as a resource was in the faculty side. So, we started to have lots of partnerships, with what was then called Faculty Development. And in Faculty Development, we got together and we shared, what are some of the education and training that we’re providing to our faculty? And here’s some things we found to be really successful with executives. How can we help and translate this? So, what was happening is that we were running parallel programs, one that was for administrative leaders and one that was for faculty leaders. And faculty leaders touched on the clinical and the research side of admission areas. So, this whole idea of the parallel, it felt very—it was just a duplication of efforts when we should be thinking about what does a good leader look like? Who cares if you’re wearing scrubs, a lab coat, or a suit? A leader is a leader. But we didn’t get to have that message until we had a president who believed in it. And that didn’t really happen until Pisters came on board. So, with Pisters, he had said, “A leader is a leader. There’s going to be a single education platform for them. Here are the characteristics that we think make up a good leader. And oh, by the way, we’re going to use this for selection, too.”
One of the things that he advocates for is the idea that you can be the best in the world. He calls them rainmakers, like bring in tons of money into the institution, and forgive me for my language, but if you’re an asshole, you’re not going to get into MD Anderson. It takes more than just being the best. You’ve got to have some of those soft skills. That’s the East Coast in me, Nina, so, you know. Curse words are going to come out every so often. (laughs)
Nina Nevill, PhD
That’s exactly how it goes. I completely hear what you’re saying.
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC
But it took a senior leader like that, the head of the entire institution, to say something like that that allowed us to bring us together and force us to come together and offer a single, comprehensive platform for learning and development. And that was the birth of the Leadership Institute.
Nina Nevill, PhD
And in terms of some of the—I think I have a better idea through your examples of, at the ground level, what it looked like. In terms of more, I don’t want to say theoretically, but what are some of the goals more broadly, then, I guess, at the Leadership Institute? I know that there are so many specifics and so many different things that it does, but if you could speak a little bit more broadly about what the goals are, that would be great.
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC
Sure. So, I guess the easiest way for me to describe this is to talk about a couple different things. One is we use the LEAD as an acronym. So, L-E-A-D. and that really incorporates our philosophy. So, what we’re interested in doing is creating leaders that are learners, that’s the L, that are emotionally intelligent, that’s the E, that are Accountable, and so, accountability in general. Now I’m blanking, is it really A? is A accountable? But we’ll just go with it for now, Nina.
Nina Nevill, PhD
Sure. I can always do a little Google search afterwards.
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC
Yeah. And then, the D is leaders that are interested in developing and serving others. So, all of our programs have to touch on more than one of those or at least one of those aspects of LEAD. If it doesn’t, then why are we doing it? So, it goes into the whole idea of continuous learners with the L, emotional intelligence is huge. It is embedded into just about every single leadership development program we run. We use the EQI, which is an emotional intelligence assessment for developmental purposes and for selection purposes. In terms of accountability, we talk about alignment of values. We talk about the performance management process. There’s tons of things that are in the accountability piece. And then, the developing and serving others, it’s all about the idea of coaching. Coaching and developing. Another thing that’s a bedrock of the Leadership Institute is our philosophy around development. So, our philosophy is learn, practice, and apply. So, our programs, there’s some element of LEARN, and that’s what you think of traditional training. It’s the online learning or the lectures, et cetera. The practice piece is through case scenarios, through role plays, through peer coaching. And then, the apply piece is, what are you going to do to teach that back to others? Or what are you going to do when you go back on the job to enact these behaviors? So, our programs follow that philosophy. So, what you might find in some of the leadership development programs or the Leadership Institute programs, is that they’ll have some online component, then we’ll get together for a synchronous learning, a live, virtual event where we discuss, “What did you learn and what are some of the things that you’ve been using?” And then we offer journal articles or journaling prompts, et cetera, for the apply piece. Then, it’s sometimes done six months post a session.
So, it’s about what are some of the other resources that they can use for the apply, or how are they going to build up a network with their fellow peers so they can help each other apply what they’ve learned? So, our programs have all three of those elements embedded in some way, shape, or form in them.
Nina Nevill, PhD
I’m happy to hear about all of this. It seems like an incredible mission and especially in talking about the LEAD acronym, I’m certainly happy to hear about the emotional intelligence aspect. I think the other three are something I’ve seen somewhat commonly in other programs, but that piece is not always there, and I’m happy to hear that we’re hopefully moving in a direction and that becomes more incorporated.
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC
Yeah, definitely.
Nina Nevill, PhD
So, in terms of the—before we move onto something a little bit different, have there been any changes, I guess, since the development of the Leadership Institute that are fundamental that we haven’t touched on that you’d like to talk about?
Michelle DeVeau, PysD, PCC
So, one of the next pieces of our evolution within the Leadership Institute is redefining, or not redefining, reemphasizing, how do we define a leader? So, in essence, everyone is a leader and everyone has the capabilities of developing their leadership skills. So, the next evolution of the Leadership Institute is the incorporation of what is still on called Employee Development and Talent Management Systems. So, as of September 1st, the Leadership Institute will incorporate not only leadership development programs for those who are formal leaders, like individuals within (inaudible) who have people reporting to them, but it’s also for every single employee. So, every employee can go to the Leadership Institute and find resources, training, tools, to help them in their development and their journey. So, that’s the next evolution. So, similar to what I had mentioned earlier about the whole idea of how a leader is a leader regardless of you’re wearing scrubs, a lab coat, or a suit, here the next evolution is, a leader is a leader, regardless if you have people reporting to you or not. So, it’s helping us as an institution understand what does that mean? And then also, I think the next portion of that is, it’s not just what the institution can do for you but it’s what you should be doing for the institution. So, it’s inspiring this whole idea of, it’s self-directed, too. You have to take responsibility for your own learning and development. There are tons of resources out there. And it’s not going to be something that’s going to be spoon-fed to you. You have to take an active involvement in it.
Identifier
DeveauM_01_20210709_C03
Publication Date
2021
Publisher
The Historical Resources Center, The Research Medical Library, The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center
City
Houston, Texas
Topics Covered
The Leader; Critical Perspectives on MD Anderson; Leadership; On Mentoring; Portraits; Education at MD Anderson
Recommended Citation
DeVeau, Michelle PsyD, PCC and Nevill, Nina, "Chapter 02: Leadership Training at MD Anderson" (2021). MD Anderson 2020 Interview Project. 3.
https://openworks.mdanderson.org/mda2020_interviewsessions/3
Conditions Governing Access
Open
